Author Topic: Hop stand bitterness  (Read 2336 times)

Offline gmac

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2098
  • London, Ontario
    • View Profile
Hop stand bitterness
« on: June 17, 2013, 09:23:57 AM »
I've been doing some heavy late hop additions and leaving them stand for about 30 mins before chilling. I'm finding a lot of extra hop bitterness that seems much greater than I anticipated. Does anyone else have this issue?  Should I chill down a bit first and then hop?
Last batch wad 10 gals and I added a 3 oz blend of Pacific Jade and Galaxy. Beer tastes good but very bitter and a bit rough which doesn't surprise me given the Galaxy.

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6080
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 09:32:43 AM »
I've been playing around with late hopping a bit too and I have been turning on the chiller and walking away for about 5 minutes, basically time to go weigh the hops, then walk back out to the kettle. I haven't done it enough either way to have an opinion but I will say that while the bitter I did this with last had a solid bitterness I would not say it was out of line, and both saisons I have done this with have been quite smooth.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4776
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 10:36:02 AM »
I do a Cream Ale with all of the hops added right after flame out. For a 45 minute hop stand and 10 gallons, the temp drops from 210 to 185F. I calculate the IBUs by calling it a 13 minute addition in Promash. Figure it I around 25 IBU, need to get it measured.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline davidgzach

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1550
    • View Profile
Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »
I've been doing some late additions as well. I'd chalk it up to hop type more than the stand.
Dave Zach

Offline duboman

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 05:53:53 AM »
I generally do a 30 minute hop stand as well and have not had any additional perceived bitterness in any of the styles I've done this with. I think it has more to do with the hops being used. Galaxy can be pretty harsh, personally I'm not a fan of them.
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline Three

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Avon, IN
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 07:07:07 AM »
From what I have read you should figure from 10% to 15% of bitterness for these additions.....
Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passin by........

Offline erockrph

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2739
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • Critical Tastings
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 07:40:17 AM »
There are a couple of good threads on the Northern Brewer forum about hop stands from someone who has done a bunch of hop stand-only IPA's. I'll try to track down links to these threads later on if I can. I don't remember off the top of my head whether he calculated it as an addition equal to 1/4 or 1/2 the length of his hop stand, but I think that is the right range and it will vary depending on your particular system.

I use Brewers Friend as my brewing software, and it has a feature for No Chill brewers to calculate extra hop utilization by entering an extended boil time. I use this feature and add 1/3 of my hop stand time, which has been a good ballpark on my system for adjusting IBU's for beers I do a true flameout hop stand.

If I'm brewing a beer where I don't want too much of an additional IBU contribution from the hop stand I will wait until my wort gets to about 190F then add my hop stand hops. I may still get some utilization, but it is minimal and I still get a hell of a lot of aroma and flavor. Basically, IPA's and APA's start their hop stand at flameout and other styles start around 190 for me. IPA's stand for 90 minutes, APA's for 60 and others for 30.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4776
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 08:09:50 AM »
Matt Brynildson talks about what they get from the whirlpool at FirestoneWalker during his interview on th BN.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline yso191

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 735
  • Yakima, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 08:11:06 AM »
I am always worried about DMS with a hop stand.  Does anyone here do a 90 minute boil when planning a hop stand to eliminate more DMS? 

I have also heard of some dropping the wort temp to below 160* then letting it sit for the hop stand to prevent DMS forming.

Thoughts?
Steve
"The purpose of an open mind is to shut it on something True." G.K. Chesterton

Offline FlipMasterFlash

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »
There are a couple of good threads on the Northern Brewer forum about hop stands from someone who has done a bunch of hop stand-only IPA's. I'll try to track down links to these threads later on if I can. I don't remember off the top of my head whether he calculated it as an addition equal to 1/4 or 1/2 the length of his hop stand, but I think that is the right range and it will vary depending on your particular system.
Here are a few. http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111338 and http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117727

Zwiller said he uses 1/2 the amount of hopstand time as the addition to calculate IBU's.  Seems about ball park about right but in all my playing with it might overstate it a bit.  Seems like all those late hops either don't add all the bitterness that one would calculate or just come across as less bitter, something like what happens with FWH.

Offline kylekohlmorgen

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
  • St. Louis, MO
    • View Profile
    • The South House Pilot Brewery
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 10:02:30 AM »
Isomerization is definitely gained during a hop stand, given the temperature is relatively high. JZ mentioned on a CYBI that they (at one point) were only adding hops to Evil Twin after KO to reduce the IBUs to a palatable level.

Check out the recent BYO article: http://www.byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

From the info given, you can count on 10-15% utilization. In BeerSmith, for a 1.060 beer, this equates to about a 15 min boil addition (Tinseth method).

In playing with hop stands and BeerSmith calculations, I think this is accurate.
@southhousebrew

Recipes, Brett/Bacteria Experiments:
http://southhousepilotbrewery.blogspot.com/

STLHops Homebrew Club:
http://STLHops.com/

Offline gmac

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2098
  • London, Ontario
    • View Profile
Re: Hop stand bitterness
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 06:45:39 AM »
Thanks all.  I've been doing my 60 min full bittering addition and then coming back with a hop stand so I think I'm going to try to cut my 60 back by 25% and let the hopstand make up the balance.