Author Topic: WY3724 How long does this take?  (Read 4237 times)

Offline duboman

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WY3724 How long does this take?
« on: June 14, 2013, 06:32:10 AM »
So on June 2nd I brewed the Saison Rye recipe from BYO magazine. I mashed at 148 for 75 minutes and checked conversion (confirmed with calibrated Thermometer) and hit all my volumes. OG was 1.062,  chilled to 62 degrees and pitched a healthy 2L starter into well aerated wort. Active fermentation began approximately 8-10 hours and allowed to self rise to 70. Then bumped temp up 5 degrees per day to it's current temperature of 90F where it has been for the last 4 days. Took a hydrometer sample last night, adjusted and am still reading 1.028 for the last 4 days!

I know this yeast is finicky and sticks around where it is now. I believe i took all this into account, hence the temperature control methods I have stated as the yeast supposedly likes it hot. Am I just being impatient with this strain? Anyone with experience and an idea of how much more time it should take to fully attenuate?

Each time I raised the temperature I gently roused the yeast. At day 7 I added some Yeast nutrient as well. Krausen had dropped several days ago. I am still getting some blow off activity but gravity has not dropped. (Verified calibration of two hydrometers in sampling)

I do have some WY1762 and am considering getting a starter going and pitching if I continue to see no movement but thought I would ask opinions first. This is my first Saison and it looks, smells and tastes awesome albeit quite sweet at this point-so far not a fan of this yeast though.

Appreciate some insight........
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 07:23:00 AM »
I did that exact same schedule on my last Saison... took 4 weeks at 90 to get down to 1.006 from 1.028.

Next time I'm going to start hot around 80 and push it to 90 per some things I've been seeing from Wyeast. Either that or I'm going with WLP565.

BUT. If you let it finish, it will rock your socks off.
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Offline brewmanator

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 07:34:24 AM »
I just did a series of saisons with this yeast.  I found patience and other distractions (SQUIRREL!) to be quite helpful. 

To me a 5 deg/day temp rise that early in the fermentation is too aggressive for this yeast.  I don't raise the temp much over ambient until I begin to see fermentation begin to slow.  Then it is a slow ramp up of the temperature (from say 72 to the mid 80s) over several weeks.  I have waited over 2 months for the beer to reach a gravity reading that I felt was right where I wanted it. 

My recommendation is to drop the temp into the low to mid 80s, brew another batch of something else, and peek at it once a week for the next month or so.  I think you'll be surprised what the yeast has done with another month's time.
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Offline duboman

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WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 07:40:30 AM »
Thanks for the replies and confirmation of the need to be patient!

I've got a few other things fermenting as well so I'm not losing sleep over this, just wasn't sure how long this could really take.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 07:42:09 AM »
I did that exact same schedule on my last Saison... took 4 weeks at 90 to get down to 1.006 from 1.028.

Next time I'm going to start hot around 80 and push it to 90 per some things I've been seeing from Wyeast. Either that or I'm going with WLP565.

BUT. If you let it finish, it will rock your socks off.
+1.  The one I recently made took just over 3 weeks to hit 1.006.  I mashed @ 147 for just over 90 minutes. Otherwise I used roughly the same fermentation schedule.  It's a shame it takes so much longer than 3711, because it makes people avoid it.  I think it makes a MUCH better saison.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 07:49:02 AM »
I forget where I heard it or who I heard it from but I've been told the secret to a shorter 3724 fermentation is to oxygenate well above what you would normally do and hit it with some extra nutrient. I think this went along with a discussion about how saison strains are theorized to have come from wine strains so you should treat them a lot more like a wine strain and less like an ale strain. I'm not sure it completely avoids the stalling out but it is supposed to help get through more fermentation before the stall hits.
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Offline duboman

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WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 07:56:58 AM »
Well, this was well oxygenated and I did add nutrient several days ago.

I did do research on the yeast and have done pretty much everything to try prevent the stall but to no avail so it's in a corner of the brew room quietly albeit slowly chugging away so I'll just forget about it for another croupier weeks and see where it goes:)
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 10:50:47 AM »
I did that exact same schedule on my last Saison... took 4 weeks at 90 to get down to 1.006 from 1.028.

Next time I'm going to start hot around 80 and push it to 90 per some things I've been seeing from Wyeast. Either that or I'm going with WLP565.

BUT. If you let it finish, it will rock your socks off.
+1.  The one I recently made took just over 3 weeks to hit 1.006.  I mashed @ 147 for just over 90 minutes. Otherwise I used roughly the same fermentation schedule.  It's a shame it takes so much longer than 3711, because it makes people avoid it.  I think it makes a MUCH better saison.

Agreed. 3711 doesn't even come close to 3724. If I get a chance to brew another saison this year, I'm going to pitch 3724 at 80 and see what happens as far as timeline and flavor/aroma. If I have any luck remembering, I'll report back here with some results.

For what it's worth, after waiting nearly a month and a half from brew day to drink my last saison (with Nelson Sauvin and 3724) - 5 gallons lasted us two weeks. Amazing stuff.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 10:59:36 AM »
I did that exact same schedule on my last Saison... took 4 weeks at 90 to get down to 1.006 from 1.028.

Next time I'm going to start hot around 80 and push it to 90 per some things I've been seeing from Wyeast. Either that or I'm going with WLP565.

BUT. If you let it finish, it will rock your socks off.
+1.  The one I recently made took just over 3 weeks to hit 1.006.  I mashed @ 147 for just over 90 minutes. Otherwise I used roughly the same fermentation schedule.  It's a shame it takes so much longer than 3711, because it makes people avoid it.  I think it makes a MUCH better saison.

Agreed. 3711 doesn't even come close to 3724. If I get a chance to brew another saison this year, I'm going to pitch 3724 at 80 and see what happens as far as timeline and flavor/aroma. If I have any luck remembering, I'll report back here with some results.

For what it's worth, after waiting nearly a month and a half from brew day to drink my last saison (with Nelson Sauvin and 3724) - 5 gallons lasted us two weeks. Amazing stuff.
Yep.  I made 2 saisons back to back - one with 3711, finished with Saaz, the other with 3724, finished with Nelson.  Both are good, but there's no comparison.  3724/Nelson is the combo for me.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 12:05:31 PM »
As a note for everyone, I emailed Wyeast and boy did they get back to me promptly!

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

That settles it. I'm doing a 3724/Nelson Sauvin rebrew but pitching at 90*. I hope this goes well!
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 12:21:23 PM »
Very helpful.  That'll shorten the time frame. Thanks Amanda :)
Jon H.

Offline duboman

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2013, 02:05:31 PM »
Thanks Amanda!
You beat me to it, I was planning on emailing them later today as well. They are great over there, I have spoken with Jess before and their customer service is terrific!
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Offline Mark G

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 04:51:14 PM »
Interesting info. I've pitched it high before, but never at anything close to 90. I'll have to experiment with temps that high. As finicky as it is, your patience is well-rewarded with the final results.
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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 05:29:10 PM »
4 weeks.  I went up to about 78 F and didn't get quite the dryness I was shooting for.  If I did it again I would do a longer open fermentation and I might also use a paint stirrer to increase oxygen absorption in the first week of fermentation which is a mead technique with wine yeasts.
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Offline jamminbrew

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Re: WY3724 How long does this take?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 09:34:54 PM »
How much yeast did you pitch? Do you make a starter? I believe that under pitching can lead to slow an/or stuck fermentations.
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