Author Topic: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please  (Read 2825 times)

Offline yalc

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Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« on: June 24, 2013, 08:48:46 AM »
I need some advice on a recent SNPA clone attempt.  First some background:
I have been brewing all grain for about 1.5 years. 
I use temperature control and mainly liquid yeast with a starter.
I am a freak about cleanliness after a few infected batches.  I keep everything covered after flameout. (no issues with diacetyl)
I use closed transfer with CO2 from carboy to keg.  I throw away my siphon hoses after 1 use.  I no longer bottle, only keg.  I take no samples during fermentation to avoid another vector of contamination.
My last batch was a SNPA clone attempt, the vital stats are:
3 gal batch            
90 min boil            
OG   1.054         
FG   1.008                   
Grain Bill:
2 Row 94%         
C 60    6%                                 
Hops:
9g of 8.8 AA Perle @ 90 min for 21 IBU
17g of 6 AA Cascade @ 45 min for 24 IBU      
26g of Cascade @ flameout         
45 IBU total      
Yeast / Fermentation:
WLP 001 which was 1 month before best by date         
1.3 g Wyeast nutrient @ 15 min
1.5 liter starter on stirplate, crashed & decanted.            
Ferm @ 69F, temp control, probe taped, insulated, to outside of carboy.
Healthy ferment 12 hours after pitch         
Wort stability sample post cool/pre transfer was excellent & tossed after no growth for 7 days      
WS sample post trans/pre pitch was excellent & tossed after no growth for 7 days         
14 days primary            
No secondary            
Closed transfer to keg with CO2.         
After 1 week in keg at 68F - Taste green, fruity, no diacetyl         
21 days after kegging - Taste is better but side by side with SNPA, no hops, no bitterness, still fruity but better. 
My palate is not good enough to distinguish which fruit but that is not the point really, it is more that it seems to be some sort of fermentation by product.
I am thinking I need to adjust my fermentation schedule somehow but am at a loss.  I am confident there is no contamination because of WS samples and no sourness or really disagreeable off flavors, just the fruitiness that won’t let any maltiness through.
I thought that WLP 001 would be a lot cleaner.
Should I go lower on my fermentation temperature?
A secondary issue is that there is no bitterness or hop flavor.  Maybe the fruitiness is masking? The Perle was purchased from a shop that keeps them refrigerated but in bulk.  Won’t do that again.
Any and all help is appreciated.
Frustrated in Florida.   

Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 10:27:44 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised with a little fruitiness from WLP001 at 69F. If you want it a bit cleaner, go with pitching around 65F.

If you're looking for more hop flavor/aroma, try dry hopping. I think SNPA is dry-hopped.

At 45 IBU you should get some bitterness. Perle is a pretty mild bittering hop. SN uses some Magnum for bittering.

Are you doing anything with your water? Perhaps a bit of sulfate may sharpen the hop flavor and bitterness.

Looks like your process is solid (as well as your notes!). I would note that its really not necessary to throw out your tubing after every transfer. With good sanitation, you can use them for several months before replacing.
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Offline duboman

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Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 10:33:48 AM »
I agree with ferm temp being a bit high. I get a very clean fermentation pitching at 60 and going no higher than 65.

Water would be my guess on hop presence and sulfate levels. I know once I started modifying my water my hoppy beers leapt to the next level in quality
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 10:48:34 AM »
Maybe acetaldehyde due to short time on the yeast cake. What was fg and did you sample it for off flavors? Acetaldehyde in low levels tastes like fresh apple cider to me, latex in higher levels.

Offline yalc

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 11:09:15 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised with a little fruitiness from WLP001 at 69F. If you want it a bit cleaner, go with pitching around 65F.

If you're looking for more hop flavor/aroma, try dry hopping. I think SNPA is dry-hopped.


Thanks, I will try a significantly lower temperature next round.  I was afraid of stalling if I went low.  Hopefully this batch will continue to improve.  I think I will also dry hop it in the keg.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 11:13:25 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised with a little fruitiness from WLP001 at 69F. If you want it a bit cleaner, go with pitching around 65F.

If you're looking for more hop flavor/aroma, try dry hopping. I think SNPA is dry-hopped.


Thanks, I will try a significantly lower temperature next round.  I was afraid of stalling if I went low.  Hopefully this batch will continue to improve.  I think I will also dry hop it in the keg.

I have read accounts of s-05 going as low as 54 and no stall. I think you will be okay at 60. certainly pitching that low and then letting it rise to 64 will help a lot. That actually brings up a question that does not appear to be in your OP. What temp did you pitch at? I actually like to chill down to a couple degrees below my target ferm temp and pitch there.
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Offline yalc

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2013, 11:53:22 AM »

I have read accounts of s-05 going as low as 54 and no stall. I think you will be okay at 60. certainly pitching that low and then letting it rise to 64 will help a lot. That actually brings up a question that does not appear to be in your OP. What temp did you pitch at? I actually like to chill down to a couple degrees below my target ferm temp and pitch there.

Good catch. I pitched around 67f and set my freezer to 69f.
Do you think the fruitiness will decline with time?

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2013, 12:21:53 PM »

I have read accounts of s-05 going as low as 54 and no stall. I think you will be okay at 60. certainly pitching that low and then letting it rise to 64 will help a lot. That actually brings up a question that does not appear to be in your OP. What temp did you pitch at? I actually like to chill down to a couple degrees below my target ferm temp and pitch there.

Good catch. I pitched around 67f and set my freezer to 69f.
Do you think the fruitiness will decline with time?

Perhaps, but with a pale ale it's not going to happen in a time frame that will be practical I would think. You could still try dry hopping this batch with some fruity new Zealand hops and see if you can't play off the esters to create something really nice. I also personally think a nice earthy hop aroma can be really nice with fruity esters, think british pale ales.
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Offline repo

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 12:35:24 PM »
First off you have less than 1 ounce of flavor/aroma hops total in this beer. I would get 2 ounces of cascade in the kettle and another ounce dry hopping.

This beer I believe is closer to 10% crystal 60, which should get color and malt profile closer.

Also you sure could have overpitched this beer. 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate for 3 gallons of 1.054 beer is overkill. This could be biggest impact but the first two are gonna play into the finished beer as well.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 12:45:53 PM »
First off you have less than 1 ounce of flavor/aroma hops total in this beer. I would get 2 ounces of cascade in the kettle and another ounce dry hopping.

This beer I believe is closer to 10% crystal 60, which should get color and malt profile closer.

Also you sure could have overpitched this beer. 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate for 3 gallons of 1.054 beer is overkill. This could be biggest impact but the first two are gonna play into the finished beer as well.

you kno wI thought overpitch for a minute then dismissed it because 1.5 liters didn't seem excessive. but I forgot it was only 3 gallons. you overpitched by more than 100%. this could well cause excessive esters. At least that is one view point.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 02:31:32 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised with a little fruitiness from WLP001 at 69F. If you want it a bit cleaner, go with pitching around 65F.

If you're looking for more hop flavor/aroma, try dry hopping. I think SNPA is dry-hopped.

At 45 IBU you should get some bitterness. Perle is a pretty mild bittering hop. SN uses some Magnum for bittering.

Are you doing anything with your water? Perhaps a bit of sulfate may sharpen the hop flavor and bitterness.

Looks like your process is solid (as well as your notes!). I would note that its really not necessary to throw out your tubing after every transfer. With good sanitation, you can use them for several months before replacing.
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is not dry hopped.
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Offline yalc

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 05:53:46 PM »
[quote author=repo link=topic=16230.msg204542#msg204542 date=1372102524

Also you sure could have overpitched this beer. 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate for 3 gallons of 1.054 beer is overkill. This could be biggest impact but the first two are gonna play into the finished beer as well.
[/quote]

I thought that underpitching caused more ester formation due to the stress on the yeast.....??

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 05:57:26 PM »
[quote author=repo link=topic=16230.msg204542#msg204542 date=1372102524

Also you sure could have overpitched this beer. 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate for 3 gallons of 1.054 beer is overkill. This could be biggest impact but the first two are gonna play into the finished beer as well.

I thought that underpitching caused more ester formation due to the stress on the yeast.....??
[/quote]
Ther are those that say under, those that say over, and both have scientific studies to back it up. Some also say that it depends.
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Offline yalc

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 04:54:57 PM »
Update:
First, thanks to everyone who chimed in.  I really appreciate the effort. 
After 16 more days I decided to try the beer again.  Wow, what a difference!  Tastes like a pale ale now, very light fruitiness, moderate hop bitterness.  I am actually excited about this beer now...too bad there is only about a gallon left in the keg.  That makes it about 35 days since I racked to the keg. 
I know it has been said a million times but pay attention to sanitation and be patient, if it ain't infected, it will probably get better. 8)

Cheers

Offline Three

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Re: Fermentation By-Products? Advice Please
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 06:04:48 PM »
I agree with ferm temp being a bit high. I get a very clean fermentation pitching at 60 and going no higher than 65.

Water would be my guess on hop presence and sulfate levels. I know once I started modifying my water my hoppy beers leapt to the next level in quality

+1 on the water.

Glad it's coming around for you on the taste!
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