Author Topic: Saison per Wyeast  (Read 1877 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Saison per Wyeast
« on: July 24, 2013, 03:59:00 PM »
Just tried my new saison, the one where I used 3724 fermented @ 90F per Wyeast's advice, to avoid the stall.  It worked well, getting to 1.004 FG in 11 days from 1.055. While I was happy with the much improved performance at the high fermentation temp, I was a little skeptical that I would like the flavor profile as much as the ones that took longer, but were done cooler with this strain. Let's face it, pretty much any other yeast on the planet (even Belgians) make a piss poor beer @ 90F.  No worries evidently. This is a great beer. Light phenols up front, followed by lemony, peppery spice - huge complexity. No fusels whatsoever, which would be a given normally with a hot fermentation. Far as I'm concerned, problem solved with this crazy yeast.  BTW, the Nelson I finished with are perfect with this strain.
Jon H.

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 04:52:16 PM »
I've used wlp565 in the 90s and had great success. So I'm not surprised.
Keith Y.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 04:58:03 PM »
I've used wlp565 in the 90s and had great success. So I'm not surprised.
I had always read for years that 3724 and 565 were the same strain (actually I used 565 before and it never stalled on me), but I'd read recent postings that they are not - that they're from Dupont but different strains.  Any info there?
Jon H.

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 05:15:04 PM »
Not sure. Never used that particular wyeast strain. Supposedly DuPont uses a blend of strains and 565 is an isolated one, or so I seem to recall. They could be different isolation. I dunno.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 05:22:52 PM »
Cool.  Thanks Keith.
Jon H.

Offline yso191

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 10:02:40 PM »
Interesting.  My next brew will be a Saison using 3724.  90*!?  What temp did you pitch at?  Did you let it free rise or ramp it up with a thermostat? 

In this 100* heat in Yakima, my kegerator/fermentation chamber in the garage is holding a steady 86* with it unplugged.
Steve

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 05:05:47 AM »
Interesting.  My next brew will be a Saison using 3724.  90*!?  What temp did you pitch at?  Did you let it free rise or ramp it up with a thermostat? 

In this 100* heat in Yakima, my kegerator/fermentation chamber in the garage is holding a steady 86* with it unplugged.
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.
Jon H.

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 05:23:48 AM »
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 05:33:13 AM »
For anyone who stumbles on this later, this is the recommendation from Wyeast via email:

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
Amanda Kertz
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BJCP National

Redbird Brewhouse - Current Project: Full Basement Bar Build

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 05:51:55 AM »
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.
I used a 1/2 gallon starter of very fresh yeast (packaged 2 weeks prior), extra yeast nutrient based on the assumption that, if these yeasts might be similar to wine yeasts as theorized, then extra nutrient is good. I used a mix-stir until the foam was @ the bucket top. Since I chose to pitch @ the recommended 90, I didn't do a ramp up, obviously not wanting to go alot higher. My first post was that it hit 1.006 in 9 days, but that's when I checked it, as I worked alot of hours that week. So it could have gotten there sooner. 10 or 11 days to hit 1.004. One thing - @ that temp the airlock activity started and was done in 2 days,maybe less. So quickly I worried it might have stalled like before.  So evidently when the yeast gets these preferred conditions, it goes pretty fast.
Jon H.

Offline duboman

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 06:06:58 AM »
For anyone who stumbles on this later, this is the recommendation from Wyeast via email:

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

It works! I followed this recommendation on the second batch I brewed and it worked perfectly where my first batch stalled. BTW, thanks for the suggestion on the Nelson hops, sounds like a great combination i'll use for my next batch!
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 06:50:15 AM »
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

Think I'll do a 10 gallon batch and side by side experiment here soon.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 07:36:12 AM »
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.

What size heater are you using?  I've been thinking of doing this to finish my bigger Belgians at higher than the ambient 72/74 temp they're at now.  Since it's warm out, the fish doesn't need his heater but it's a tiny one for a 2.5 gallon tank.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 07:53:32 AM »
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.

What size heater are you using?  I've been thinking of doing this to finish my bigger Belgians at higher than the ambient 72/74 temp they're at now.  Since it's warm out, the fish doesn't need his heater but it's a tiny one for a 2.5 gallon tank.
It was one we had laying around from our old aquarium - 150W IIRC.  I experimented with it first ,using 90F water in a tub, to see what temp it would keep. It maintained just ~ 88 degrees uncovered. So since I needed 90F for the fermentation, I covered the tub and bucket with a down comforter to hold in the heat. It peaked right ~ 93. Worked great, especially with stuff I had sitting around anyway.
Jon H.

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Re: Saison per Wyeast
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 07:56:44 AM »
Cool.  I need to give it a try.  Hard to find time in the summer, though.  Weekends get booked quickly.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton