[repo]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it works well.  No pump for me, I think I'll try it in a pale ale first and go from there.

[scottNU]

Very interesting recipe. I can't wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all "perceived" in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

There have been several threads on the Northern brewer forums on hop-stand only brews. From what I've heard, the bitterness is up there, but tends to be smoother than if you used a true 60-minute boiled addition. Since isomerization happens above 185F, there is still quite a bit of IBU's generated from a hot hop stand, just not as much as if you were at full boil. My experience say's it's roughly equal to an addition 1/3 the length of a hop stand, but others find that 1/2 the time is closer. I think a lot of that will depend on your individual system.

Thanks for the information. I am interested in smoothing out the bitterness of the bittering charge. I have heard suggestions that first wort hopping has a similar effect. It seems a little counterintuitive that FWHing and a post boil hop stand would have similar outcomes considering the very different mechanics at play. 

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don't know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

[hopfenundmalz]

Very interesting recipe. I can't wait to hear the tasting notes. Is the bitterness from the hops all "perceived" in the aroma or is there some true bitter flavor on the tongue?

There have been several threads on the Northern brewer forums on hop-stand only brews. From what I've heard, the bitterness is up there, but tends to be smoother than if you used a true 60-minute boiled addition. Since isomerization happens above 185F, there is still quite a bit of IBU's generated from a hot hop stand, just not as much as if you were at full boil. My experience say's it's roughly equal to an addition 1/3 the length of a hop stand, but others find that 1/2 the time is closer. I think a lot of that will depend on your individual system.

Read Mitch Steele's NHC presentation this year. "Enjoy by IPA" has only FWH, whirlpool, and dry hops.
Thanks for the information. I am interested in smoothing out the bitterness of the bittering charge. I have heard suggestions that first wort hopping has a similar effect. It seems a little counterintuitive that FWHing and a post boil hop stand would have similar outcomes considering the very different mechanics at play. 

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don't know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

[denny]

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don't know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

I did some experimenting with mash hopping.  My conclusion was that I got as much out of mash hopping as I would if I'd thrown the hops away.

[klickitat jim]

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don't know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

I did some experimenting with mash hopping.  My conclusion was that I got as much out of mash hopping as I would if I'd thrown the hops away.

I can totally see that scientific taste test in Denny's kitchen.  "Ok guys, now this is from the batch where I just threw the hops away. What do you think? "

[scottNU]

I have also thought about mash hopping (as suggested at my LHBS) but don't know how this variable might also play with bitterness.  This a cool part of homebrewing that we are afforded the ability to do so many different things that might not be possible at large scales.  Thanks again.

I did some experimenting with mash hopping.  My conclusion was that I got as much out of mash hopping as I would if I'd thrown the hops away.

I can totally see that scientific taste test in Denny's kitchen.  "Ok guys, now this is from the batch where I just threw the hops away. What do you think? "

Haha!  Not what I would call a ringing endorsement. It's OK to have one less option.

[mugwort]

I just got this into the fermenter. Crazy amount of hops - looking forward to how this turns out. I used a 30 minute addition to estimate the utilization from the 90 minute hop stand. Not that it matters much at 475 IBU...

Batch Size: 3.5 gallons (fermentor volume)

HOPS:
2 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 14.8, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 104.49
2 oz - Apollo, Type: Pellet, AA: 18, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 139.79
2 oz - Meridian, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.7, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 52.03
2 oz - Motueka, Type: Pellet, AA: 7.2, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 55.92
2.5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 0 min, IBU: 123.29
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 12, Use: Hopback for 0 min at  °F
1.5 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 14.8, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
2 oz - Meridian, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.7, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
2 oz - Motueka, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 7.2, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
1 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

Holy wow, you are really throwing in the cones lock, hop & barrel!  That'll make for a pricy-ipa, but very delicious I'd think.  Since I've gone all organic hops with the accompanying higher prices, I haven't dared a recipe that utilizes this many hops per gallon.

I wonder whether there's a functional flavor-ceiling, after which adding more cones yields minimal impact.  I'd like to home in on an optimal amount and manner of addition to maximize aroma and flavor--that point before one sees diminishing returns on those hop additions.

Looking forward to reading more about this one.

[erockrph]

Just a quick update on this. I bottled this batch tonight. It looked, smelled and tasted like fresh squeezed pineapple-grapefruit juice. The bitterness level wasn't overpowering despite the amount of fine hop debris that is still in suspension. I can't wait until this carbs up to give it a real taste, but I think it might need a bit of extended cold-conditioning to help settle out as much of the hop trub as possible.

As a side note, I am officially swearing off using a combo of both cone and pellet hops for dry hopping with this large of a hopping rate. With one or the other you can easily get your siphon in a spot where you aren't sucking up hop debris when racking. With both forms of hops it's tough to see and find a spot where you can get and maintain a clean siphon. I kept losing suction, and rather than risking oxidation I ended up leaving at least a half gallon of beer in the fermenter and called it a night.

[vista]

I have read that 100 ibus is kind of the threshold for bitterness, that the palate cannot tell if a beer is 100 or higher. Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, has anyone done a study on the flavor side of the equation? If someone through in a lb of flavor hops, they couldn't tell if there was more after that. Making up the amount here.

Sorry to hijack, kind. I too would like to know the cost per pint.

[AmandaK]

As a side note, I am officially swearing off using a combo of both cone and pellet hops for dry hopping with this large of a hopping rate. With one or the other you can easily get your siphon in a spot where you aren't sucking up hop debris when racking. With both forms of hops it's tough to see and find a spot where you can get and maintain a clean siphon. I kept losing suction, and rather than risking oxidation I ended up leaving at least a half gallon of beer in the fermenter and called it a night.

I have used a stainless steel screen on the end of my dip tube to good success to remedy this. I also quit using pellet/whole hops. In fact, I use hop extract (Hop Shots) for my hugely bitter beers - got one in the fermenter now, quite tasty after 10 days. I do find that the bitterness from a Hop Shot tends to take about 4-5 weeks to really show up. For the first few days it's a pale ale, then it transforms into an IPA, then it morphs in to an IIPA after a month. Really weird.

[AmandaK]

I have read that 100 ibus is kind of the threshold for bitterness, that the palate cannot tell if a beer is 100 or higher. Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, has anyone done a study on the flavor side of the equation? If someone through in a lb of flavor hops, they couldn't tell if there was more after that. Making up the amount here.

Sorry to hijack, kind. I too would like to know the cost per pint.

You've probably read that it's the limit for the solubility of iso-alpha acids in wort. If you read the Hops book, you'll find the answer to your other question, which is no. But people are working on it.

Cost per pint will vary on where you get your supplies and how. I buy in bulk, seasonally and on sale. This 4 gallon batch would have cost me $41.84, meaning $0.98 per 12 oz. ($0.55 higher than my normal batch).

[erockrph]

I couldn't wait any more, so I cracked into a bottle of this tonight. Carbonation is at a drinkable level, but still on the low side. The beer is hazy as hell.

The nose is big citrus. There's grapefruit and pineapple predominantly along with some peaches and a hint of pine. The aroma could stand to be a little bit more powerful, but I think once the carbonation level picks up that will change.

As soon as it hits the palate - POW! It's like drinking grapefruit juice with a shot of pineapple. The citrus is mouth-puckeringly potent. The beer itself is not tart, but boy does it ever play tricks on your palate from the massive impression of hops. The finish is more grapefruit, but then the stonefruit peach/plum character from the Meridian starts to show up a bit as well.

As the juiciness fades, the bittering level starts to show itself more. The bitterness is definitely there, but it isn't abrasive at all. I'd equate it to about 60 IBU's of FWH with no 60-minute addition. I sent off a sample for IBU testing, so it will be interesting what this one comes in at in the lab.

I'm sure the character will change somewhat once the carbonation picks up, but damn this is a good beer right now. It will also be interesting to see how the hop character changes over the course of a few months (if I can manage to save some for that long).

The citrus character is a bit overwhelming, so I'd probably cut the Nelson and/or swap out the Citra for something a bit more straight tropical as opposed to citrus-tropical next time. Maybe Galaxy or El Dorado. I'm glad I didn't use any Crystal malt because this wouldn't be as enjoyable if it was sweet. I'm picking up almost no malt character. I might try turning up the volume on the malt just a bit. I'm thinking maybe using Aromatic instead of Victory next time. And regardless of what the lab tells me, the impression of bitterness could come up a notch or two. I might do a small 20-25 IBU addition of Columbus at 60 minutes.

I will definitely be developing this further as my standard IPA recipe. Hop flavor is off the charts and I think 2 oz/gallon for dry hops is at or above the point of diminishing returns. The only thing I'd consider changing with dry hops would be to split them into 2 separate additions to see if that pushes the aroma even higher.

I'm definitely looking forward to trying this using hops that push the dank/piney side of things more to see how that turns out. If fruity hops = fruit juice IPA, what will Chinook/Simcoe/Columbus give you?

[HoosierBrew]

Definitely sounds interesting.  Thanks for the feedback !

[denny]

Dammit...it's 8 AM and now I want a beer!

[redbeerman]

I'm definitely looking forward to trying this using hops that push the dank/piney side of things more to see how that turns out. If fruity hops = fruit juice IPA, what will Chinook/Simcoe/Columbus give you?

Piney cat pee?