Author Topic: Water build for Czech Pils  (Read 2576 times)

Offline redbeerman

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 06:47:05 AM »
Jeff Rankert suggests 0.7 grams per gallon of Calcium Chloride for both mash and sparge water.
i do?

On the last BoPils I did 40 ppm Ca adding CaCl2. I don't add gypsum to keep the bitterness soft, not dry in the finish. Edit - I put around 85 ppm SO4 in my German Pils, and that is dry and lingering.

Didn't Martin say something about a little NaCl in the last month, for taste?

I got that form an old thread, Jeff.  I know I get better conversion if I add calcium to the mash.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10379.0
I am always amazed when people think I know what I am talking about!

Looking at the notes, I had backed down on the Ca to 0.5 gram/gallon because this was a triple decoction, including the acid rest. Hit the target pH no problem.

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Offline jeffy

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2013, 08:53:55 AM »
Last time I made a good Czech pils I used the promash water profile for Pilzn and added a percentage of distilled water to my well water to match it as closely as possible.  Turns out I can get close with 2/3 distilled water to 1/3 well water.  If you have a water report on your brewing water you could try calculating that.
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Offline redzim

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2013, 11:53:42 AM »
Last time I made a good Czech pils I used the promash water profile for Pilzn and added a percentage of distilled water to my well water to match it as closely as possible.  Turns out I can get close with 2/3 distilled water to 1/3 well water.  If you have a water report on your brewing water you could try calculating that.

Does that give you enough calcium, etc for yeast health? That profile doesn't have much of anything in it....

And when folks talk of using "enough acidulated malt" what does that mean? I am comfortable in BrunWater; should I just add acidulated malt in the malt bill until the projected mash pH drops to something like 5.3?

Offline blatz

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 12:42:00 PM »
Last time I made a good Czech pils I used the promash water profile for Pilzn and added a percentage of distilled water to my well water to match it as closely as possible.  Turns out I can get close with 2/3 distilled water to 1/3 well water.  If you have a water report on your brewing water you could try calculating that.

Does that give you enough calcium, etc for yeast health? That profile doesn't have much of anything in it....

And when folks talk of using "enough acidulated malt" what does that mean? I am comfortable in BrunWater; should I just add acidulated malt in the malt bill until the projected mash pH drops to something like 5.3?

if you're using all RO water, you might not need acid malt at all.  i rarely if ever use lactic or acid malt I started building from RO.  YMMV
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2013, 01:25:15 PM »
Last time I made a good Czech pils I used the promash water profile for Pilzn and added a percentage of distilled water to my well water to match it as closely as possible.  Turns out I can get close with 2/3 distilled water to 1/3 well water.  If you have a water report on your brewing water you could try calculating that.

Does that give you enough calcium, etc for yeast health? That profile doesn't have much of anything in it....

And when folks talk of using "enough acidulated malt" what does that mean? I am comfortable in BrunWater; should I just add acidulated malt in the malt bill until the projected mash pH drops to something like 5.3?
Red, Weyermann's rule of thumb is 1% acidulated malt will drop the pH 0.1. That said, they did not say for what water alkalinity. For RO you would not need much, as there is no buffering from the water alkalinity.

The last BoPils was RO, 35 ppm Ca via CaCl2, and a triple decoction which has an acid rest. You can avoid the acid rest with acidulated malt, or adding acid to the mash.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 06:27:26 AM by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline dcbc

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2013, 01:45:59 PM »
As far as bopils water goes, are we operating under the assumption that the Czech brewers are not adding gypsum or CaCl2?  I can't remember where I read it, but at some point back when I was really chasing this style and brewing it a lot, I was told to add some gypsum even though, as Martin mentioned, intuitively, the result would seem to be a harsher/dryer (more German Pils) bitterness.  Contrary to what I assumed, the result was much closer to the Czech Pilsners than I ever got using CaCl2 or trying to mimic the "single digit" Pilsen type water profile (and I tried it all).  It may be that 50 ppm is still a pretty low concentration for sulfates and doesn't contribute tremendously at that concentration to the crisp bitterness with which it is associated.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:48:18 PM by dcbc »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2013, 02:38:01 PM »
I was actually wondering the same thing: What does Czechvar and Pilsner Urquell use for their water these days??  I haven't bothered to look it up yet, but somehow I bet Google has the answer someplace.
Dave

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2013, 07:05:52 PM »
To my knowledge, PU has their own wells to supply their water.  That is probably a good thing since Pilsen now adds lime to the water supply to harden the water and reduce the corrosivity of the native water.  The native Pilsen water is nearly RO quality and is quite corrosive to the piping systems.  I do not know if PU adds any mineral adjustments to their brewing water.  I would not be surprised if they do, however I'm fairly sure that it would not be at the level we homebrewers have defined as providing the minimum calcium level. 
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2013, 07:55:36 PM »
I quickly found this article, which states:

"Inside the Brewery -- The Making of an Original
Soft water: As is true with many of the world's best beers, the water used in Pilsner Urquell is distinctive. In this case, it is very soft, containing only about 50 ppm of total dissolved solids; Burton water, by contrast, contains about 1,200 ppm. The water also contains only about 10 ppm calcium, meaning that the brewers must adjust the pH during the mash."

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

And then here is another article which states:

"The water used in today's Pilsner Urquell, the company says, is from the same underground source used to make the original in 1842."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2009-03-30-pilsner-beer-factory_N.htm

So, you see... we don't need no stinking minimum 50 ppm calcium or anything else.  Sprinkle some fairy dust on your water if you must, but... all you really need to do is acidify.
Dave

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Offline dcbc

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 12:33:51 PM »
I read that article in the morebeer link back when I was working on a recipe.  That hopping schedule, pitching/fermentation temp, and two hour boil are each part of my process.  I also long two step Hochkurz type rests at 143 and 158 and mash out.  I have done it both with and without decoction and, ultimately don't notice a huge difference in the end product.


As for water treatment, it's your beer, do with it as you please.  That article says "they must adjust the water during the mash," but does not say with what be it acid or salts.  I always adjust the mash with acid, but as for adjusting the water profile from RO, I have done it with minimal added mineral content to mimic the Pilsen water as well as adding CaCl2 or Gypsum to the boil.  In my case, surprisingly, a gypsum addition resulted in a beer that was the closest by my palate, but all were very good.  But the only way to really know is to try a variety of approaches and judge for yourself.

With this style, the biggest contributor to that distinct Czech pils flavor is time.  The flavor from the saaz hops changes pretty drastically at about the 6--8 week point.   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:08:36 PM by dcbc »
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Offline redzim

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 12:43:25 PM »

With this style, the biggest contributor to that distinct Czech pils flavor is time.  The flavor from the saaz hops changes pretty drastically at about the 6--8 week point.   

I find I like my Bo Pils a lot better when it is closer to 8 weeks lagered than 4 weeks (which is when I am quite happy with most of my other continental lagers)

Offline dcbc

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 01:05:35 PM »
Agreed.  My German pils, dortmunder and helles are good to go at 4 weeks.  Bopils is a different animal.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2013, 01:17:36 PM »
I also long two step Hochkurz type rests at 143 and 158 and mash out.  I have done it both with and without decoction and, ultimately don't notice a huge difference in the end product.


how long on each step?  i've been doing 40min at 145, then ramp up to 158 (which takes 15-20min) and then rest 20 min at 158, then ramp to 168 (again 15-20 min to get there).  what is your process.

I agree on the time for Bopils unlike some of the other lager styles - it does seem to round out around week 8.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2013, 02:12:42 PM »

With this style, the biggest contributor to that distinct Czech pils flavor is time.  The flavor from the saaz hops changes pretty drastically at about the 6--8 week point.   

I find I like my Bo Pils a lot better when it is closer to 8 weeks lagered than 4 weeks (which is when I am quite happy with most of my other continental lagers)

I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Dave

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Offline dcbc

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Re: Water build for Czech Pils
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2013, 07:40:57 AM »
I also long two step Hochkurz type rests at 143 and 158 and mash out.  I have done it both with and without decoction and, ultimately don't notice a huge difference in the end product.


how long on each step?  i've been doing 40min at 145, then ramp up to 158 (which takes 15-20min) and then rest 20 min at 158, then ramp to 168 (again 15-20 min to get there).  what is your process.

I agree on the time for Bopils unlike some of the other lager styles - it does seem to round out around week 8.

I typically do 45 minutes to an hour at both 143 and 158 and hold at 168 for 10 minutes.  Probably overkill holding it so long at 158.  Kai's description said an hour at each temp if I recall, however.
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