Author Topic: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown  (Read 1551 times)

Offline amh0001

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Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« on: August 22, 2013, 09:37:08 PM »
Hello all,

I have a couple questions for ya.

First off I am going to attempt to clone Ellie's Brown from Avery. I think it is bad ass they give the recipe on their website:
http://averybrewing.com/brewery/recipes-for-homebrewers/

Here is what I have plugged into beer smith, but the IBU's show so low. The website says 28 IBU's, but beersmith only shows 8. Is this a calculation error on part of the 0 min addition? I'm using regar.





Recipe: Ellies Brown orginal
Style: American Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.46 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 4.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 23.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 8.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs 2.6 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.6 %
13.1 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.2 %
9.8 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.1 %
6.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.1 %
0.13 oz Bullion [7.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 4.6 IBUs
0.32 oz Sterling [5.10 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 3.9 IBUs
1.01 oz Sterling [5.10 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 7 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs

Also, I could find Bullion so I was thinking Northern Brewer.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2013, 05:15:51 AM »
E-mail the brewery and see if they whirlpool before the send through the heat exchanger. That can add significant IBUs as compared to the calculations. Also ask if the number on their page was from the production beers lab analysis or a calculation.

Change the 0 minute addition to a 15 or 20 minute addition and see how that changes the IBU. If it is close to your target of 28, then you need to do a hop stand after flameout. The time of the stand will depend on your system. If you have a pump you can recirculate to get some whirl pooling going. This will have to be some trial and error.

I do post boil whirlpools often, usually around 45 minutes. It is a way to replicate what the pros do on their systems.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2013, 05:47:52 AM »
Also, that 60 min addition (.13 oz of a 7.6 AA hop) is tiny.  If you aren't comfortable with or don't want to do a hopstand, you could raise the 60 min addition in Beersmith until you get to your 28 IBU target, leaving all the other hops as is. I bet it's closer to an ounce and a half.
Jon H.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2013, 06:26:55 AM »
Brewers Gold is the best sub for Bullion.
Jeff Rankert
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Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline amh0001

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »
Hey guys thank you very much for the replies, I will email the brewery, and post what they say here. Also I wll see if my LHBS has Brewers Gold.

Offline amh0001

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2013, 09:33:16 AM »
Oh by the way there is some good replies over here too. I'm sure someone will run into this problem one day too.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ellies-brown-clone-ibus-flavor-green-beer-questions-409933/

Offline cheshirecat

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2013, 10:23:30 AM »
How you have your IBU calculated on Beersmith could have something to do with it as well. Beersmith default is Tinseth, so if you changed that to Rager or Garetz, or they use a different calculation then you, it can have an effect as well. Just a thought.

Offline amh0001

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2013, 10:38:37 AM »
I use Rager. I checked with Tinseth and Garetz (spelling) and they were even lower IBU lol

Offline blatz

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2013, 10:42:28 AM »
How you have your IBU calculated on Beersmith could have something to do with it as well. Beersmith default is Tinseth, so if you changed that to Rager or Garetz, or they use a different calculation then you, it can have an effect as well. Just a thought.

that is true, but if you look at the recipe, it has less than half an ounce of mid Alpha acid hops in the entire boil. 

a guy in my brewclub went on Avery's tour last year and he said they do use a massive whirlpool.  I'm guessing they get most of the bittering from there.  if you do a 1 hour hopstand, you could approximate the bitterness of the flameout addition in between a 15-20min addition - but even at that I don't see how you get to 28 ibus total (can't do the calculation on this computer  >:( ) - just to see the calculation, try inputting the 1oz sterling in as a 20min addition to see what it might contribute.

if that's not it, then I'm suspect that maybe Avery just literally scaled down their recipes - IIRC on very big setups (30bbl +) that pros get higher utilization from hops, which might also explain things ?
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Offline amh0001

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 10:55:11 AM »
I just bumped the 0 min add to 20. and it gave 8.1 IBU's for a total of 16.7

Offline erockrph

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2013, 11:21:57 AM »
I just bumped the 0 min add to 20. and it gave 8.1 IBU's for a total of 16.7

Did the recipe give AA values for the hops they use? My Sterlings are 7.1% AA, which brings you a bit closer. Using Brewer's Friend, a quick calculation shows that if you hit 14% utilization on your whirlpool you'll get to the IBU target you're looking for. (Sorry, have to post a screenshot - text export is working funky for whirlpool hops):

Eric B.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2013, 11:27:11 AM »
Tinseth is most accurate on my system for the boil additions. None of the calculators have predictions for a hop stand/whirlpool addition.

You could use your favorite calculation algorithm for the following. Keep the hop additions in the same ratio. Have your 0 minute as a 15 or 20 minute, it is a swag on your system. Increase all of the additions by affixed percentage and see where you end up. Try 50%, Looking at the last post, maybe try 75%. Then fine tune it to hit the target IBU, by going up or down a smaller fixed percentage for each. That should balance the bitterness and flavor/aroma from the additions.

Paul is correct that large brewing systems get better hop utilization. We will all have different utilization on our specific systems with our specific techniques.

Saw erockrph's post, which is very good input. Hey - Brewer's Friend does a whirlpool calculation, who knew. What time do they assume, or do you enter that in there.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline blatz

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2013, 11:33:12 AM »
in trying to figure out whirlpool utilization, I've seen pros say anywhere from 10-20%, dependent on length and temperature.

the sterling on the Avery website was 5.1% but if they are getting 16-18% its probably getting there.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2013, 11:55:26 AM »
Saw erockrph's post, which is very good input. Hey - Brewer's Friend does a whirlpool calculation, who knew. What time do they assume, or do you enter that in there.

Basically you enter your own time and starting temp, but those are just for reference. You need to enter a utilization %, and that is all it uses to calculate IBU's.

I don't use this feature myself, however, as it doesn't calculate any increased utilization from your boil additions using this function. It more closely approximates if you runoff and whirlpool in a separate tank. There is a different feature for "No Chill" brewers where you add an estimate of additional boil time to estimate additional utilization, and it bumps all your hop additions by that amount, so that's what I use. I usually use 1/3 my hop stand time, but others find that 1/2 the hop stand time is a better estimate for their system.
Eric B.

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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Clone attempt of my favorite brown ale; Avery's Ellie's Brown
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »
beer smith has a place to adjust the utilization %. it mentions that for larger system it should be greater than 100%.

overall though I go +1 on upping the early hops to get your IBUs
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