Author Topic: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains  (Read 1847 times)

cornershot

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 09:22:43 AM »

Really? Do you agree with this statement Denny? I've never heard about proteins getting 'used up'.
 
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Lastly, homebrewers who keg their beer should be aware that foam positive molecules can get “used up” when foam is created. Thus, if you shake your keg to carbonate it, you may be dipping into your pool of foam makers for your beer.


This comes up now and again.  I've never experienced the foam positive molecules getting used up.  My recollection is that Denny's experience is similar. 

That said, the head retention in my higher alcohol beers is something I would like to improve, if possible.  After I got the carbonation dialed in on my last keg, the head retention is not bad but I'm not getting the lacing I'd like.

I've heard this 'theory' before. The author apparently considers it a theory as well: "you may be dipping..." Doesn't sound too sure of himself. Any keg-shaker will tell you it's bs.

Offline bluesman

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 09:31:27 AM »
I recommend using the crushed batch as a "concentrated blend" to add to some base malt and carafa for a Quad or other variant style. Just estimate the desired level of specialty malts needed in your recipe and save the remaining amount for other recipes. Keep it in an airtight, dark, cool environment.
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Offline oregonianredbird

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 10:57:52 PM »
I recommend using the crushed batch as a "concentrated blend" to add to some base malt and carafa for a Quad or other variant style. Just estimate the desired level of specialty malts needed in your recipe and save the remaining amount for other recipes. Keep it in an airtight, dark, cool environment.

That's pretty much what I'm going to try first - my current recipe is to use about 7 lb of the mix, add 10 lb pilsner, and end up with 8.5% carapils and 8% aromatic malt. Plus some more munich, some carafa iii, and some nice belgian candi syrup or solid sugars at the end of the boil. It'll be a long, slow mash with steps at 104, 122, 140, and 150 to try and keep my attenuation as high as possible, and we'll hope for a 10.8% quad that can finish out around 1.022 or so. And yes, it's in an airtight bucket, nitrogen flushed, and at cellar temp.

As for reverseapachemaster's idea, I hadn't considered a sour, but that's worth a thought. My friend is going to attempt a barleywine, but perhaps a sour brown will be a future project. It's just so stinking much carapils!

Offline denny

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 08:34:53 AM »

Really? Do you agree with this statement Denny? I've never heard about proteins getting 'used up'.
 
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Lastly, homebrewers who keg their beer should be aware that foam positive molecules can get “used up” when foam is created. Thus, if you shake your keg to carbonate it, you may be dipping into your pool of foam makers for your beer.

Yep, that's been known for years and I completely agree.  It may or may not cause problems for you, but it happens.
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 11:06:39 AM »
Yep, that's been known for years and I completely agree.  It may or may not cause problems for you, but it happens.
Huh, any info on how that happens?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 11:15:33 AM »
Yep, that's been known for years and I completely agree.  It may or may not cause problems for you, but it happens.
Huh, any info on how that happens?

proteins fold when they make foam, similar to denaturing but different, once folded they can't unfold into the form they were in originally and in order to make foam you have to start out in that initial form.

At least that's how I understand it.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

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Offline denny

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 11:38:13 AM »
proteins fold when they make foam, similar to denaturing but different, once folded they can't unfold into the form they were in originally and in order to make foam you have to start out in that initial form.

At least that's how I understand it.

Good explanation!
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 12:03:43 PM »
proteins fold when they make foam, similar to denaturing but different, once folded they can't unfold into the form they were in originally and in order to make foam you have to start out in that initial form.

At least that's how I understand it.

Good explanation!

Thanks!
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 12:20:19 PM »
Yep, that's been known for years and I completely agree.  It may or may not cause problems for you, but it happens.
Huh, any info on how that happens?

proteins fold when they make foam, similar to denaturing but different, once folded they can't unfold into the form they were in originally and in order to make foam you have to start out in that initial form.

At least that's how I understand it.
I follow. There must be some reaction that occurs when they interlink.
Jimmy K

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cornershot

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2013, 07:34:19 PM »
I don't understand how all this business of foam proteins getting used up applies to homebrewing.
If I shake the bejeezus out of a cold commercial beer, known to have good foam, the amount of foaming is limited by the amount of head space and the amount of pressure released(none). So I can shake it up really good and it can barely foam inside the bottle and therefore uses up little of it's foam-producing proteins. If I let that bottle rest a few minutes in the fridge, I can open it and pour a beer with a nice, lasting head. This is not theoretical because I just did it with a Stone IPA, which traveled 3000 miles on bumpy trains and trucks to get to me, being shaken(and probably warm) the whole trip.
Maybe if I shake up that bottle and immediately open it and pour out a gallon of foam, then let it settle and repackage and recarbonate, then maybe it won't have any foam proteins left. But in what scenario would that apply to what anyone would do to their homebrew?

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Strong dark Belgian ideas from mixed grains
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2013, 07:54:01 PM »
I don't understand how all this business of foam proteins getting used up applies to homebrewing.
If I shake the bejeezus out of a cold commercial beer, known to have good foam, the amount of foaming is limited by the amount of head space and the amount of pressure released(none). So I can shake it up really good and it can barely foam inside the bottle and therefore uses up little of it's foam-producing proteins. If I let that bottle rest a few minutes in the fridge, I can open it and pour a beer with a nice, lasting head. This is not theoretical because I just did it with a Stone IPA, which traveled 3000 miles on bumpy trains and trucks to get to me, being shaken(and probably warm) the whole trip.
Maybe if I shake up that bottle and immediately open it and pour out a gallon of foam, then let it settle and repackage and recarbonate, then maybe it won't have any foam proteins left. But in what scenario would that apply to what anyone would do to their homebrew?

I suspect you are right. I have also never had a problem shaking the keg.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller