Author Topic: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb  (Read 1037 times)

Offline dnicholson

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Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« on: October 02, 2013, 07:49:42 PM »
K - need to pick ur brains - again. So have apples coming out my ying yang (have already made 40 or 50 gals) - want to make a sweetish apple wine - have taken the apple juice and froze it and drained the concentrate out of it (reduced from 24 to 8 L). Want to ferment with yeast that terminates at say 12 - 15% abv and have some residual sweetness - any suggestions? - am going to shoot for a sg of say 1.12. Another observation - the first off gas from fermentation appears to have a lot of the aroma and is lost - am going to "bag" the ga, compress it and use it to carb to hopefully reinstall some of the aromatics - any idea of how much volume would be produced from say 1.12 to 1.02 sg?

Offline erockrph

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 08:50:08 PM »
Instead of trying to recapture these aromatics and reinfuse them (I'm not even sure if that's possible), maybe reserve some of the concentrate and add it after the initial fermentation has started to wind down. The secondary ferment won't be as vigorous and will keep more of the aromatics. This is sort of like when I want a bit more "oomph" from the fruit in my melomels - I'll save half to add in secondary instead of using it all in primary.

The other thought would be to let it ferment bone dry, then use the concentrate to back sweeten. This way none of those aromatics will be eaten up. You may need to stabilize the wine if you go that route.
Eric B.

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Offline dnicholson

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 04:37:22 AM »
Great idea! - I did have reservations about use of off gas as assume would be mostly co2 but not sure and as well, if the amount of gas to carb would actually add enough aromatics. Had an orchard specialist here from Germany yesterday (visiting) - learned 2 things - there was a question in an earlier post as to how ripe apples and pears should be - he said to cut fruit in half, look at seeds - they should be at least 3/4 brown - works much like acrospire on malted barley. As well, he also said that they ferment out the rehydrated pulp to make schnapps! - not about to try it but thought was interesting

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 05:10:31 AM »
+1 to above comments
Winemakers ferment white wines at cool temperatures to keep the fermentation less vigorous and thus keep it from blowing off the precious aromatics. Choose a yeast that can ferment at the lowest temperature you can manage and with the alcohol tolerance that fits your profile.
D47 yeast will ferment down to 60f and has an alcohol tolerance of about 14%. Many beer yeasts will work as well. Maybe a lager yeast?

Offline denny

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 09:14:21 AM »
 I assume you're going to add sugar to hit that SG?  Your plan to find a yeast that ferments to that ABV but finishes with sweetness ain't gonna happen....no yeast will produce anything but a very dry cider unless you artificially arrest fermentation.  That's not easy and kinda unpredictable.  You might want to check out Drew's "Everything Hard Cider" book to get some ideas.
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Online morticaixavier

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 11:13:16 AM »
I assume you're going to add sugar to hit that SG?  Your plan to find a yeast that ferments to that ABV but finishes with sweetness ain't gonna happen....no yeast will produce anything but a very dry cider unless you artificially arrest fermentation.  That's not easy and kinda unpredictable.  You might want to check out Drew's "Everything Hard Cider" book to get some ideas.

you can overwhelm the yeast if you choose your strain correctly and give it enough sugar to chew on. This is how you make a sweet mead isn't it?  Start at like 1.2 and the yeast will simply give up before they have fermented it all.

I think he hit the SG be freeze concentrating the must.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 11:55:48 AM »
I assume you're going to add sugar to hit that SG?  Your plan to find a yeast that ferments to that ABV but finishes with sweetness ain't gonna happen....no yeast will produce anything but a very dry cider unless you artificially arrest fermentation.  That's not easy and kinda unpredictable.  You might want to check out Drew's "Everything Hard Cider" book to get some ideas.

you can overwhelm the yeast if you choose your strain correctly and give it enough sugar to chew on. This is how you make a sweet mead isn't it?  Start at like 1.2 and the yeast will simply give up before they have fermented it all.

I think he hit the SG be freeze concentrating the must.

Unless you know how a yeast works in your particular system very well, then I think it's a big crapshoot trying to land at a particular FG. I'd love to be able to target a specific FG with my meads and melomels so I don't over- or under- attenuate, but I figure I would have to brew close to a dozen batches to really nail that down for a particular recipe. The first time I used 71B I planned on it fermenting to 15% like its spec sheet reads. It overshot my target FG by about 30 points and finished bone dry at 18%. The next time I started about 15-20 points higher for OG, and it stalled out about 15 points over my target.

Now for sweet meads and melomels I plan on letting the yeast finishing out as far as it will go (and finishing dry), then I backsweeten. It's a much more reliable way to hit the sweetness level you want, IMO.
Eric B.

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 12:06:59 PM »
+1 to backsweetening.
Jon H.

Offline dnicholson

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 03:01:18 AM »
Yes - by freezing the apple juice you can hit any sg you wish - can concentrate it down to a thick syrup if you wish by simply refreezing concentrate - have done the same thing making maple syrup with no boiling - ends up being an almost clear syrup with little maple flavour - need to boil to give the caramel/maple flavour - got to admit is not very efficient at capturing sugars but is quick, simple and energy efficient when have lots of base material. Will take ur advice and use a lager yeast to try to keep aromatics and see what happens! Appreciate the input!

Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2013, 08:59:08 AM »
Colder fermentation really helps with standard ciders. With concentrated juice I think you'll have plenty of aromatics. If you think it needs more after fermentation, try sweetening it. It's amazing how your perception of aroma and flavor is affected by sugar.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Using Concentrate - Reusing Off Gas to Carb
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2013, 09:28:26 AM »
Backsweetening to taste is a good method. Just need to assure that yeast have completely dropped out, or you'll have to treat with campden tabs (potassium metabisulfite). If the cider has had some time to age and becomes bright, you can then backsweeten without using campden tabs. Just rack it into another vessel with some sweetener (concentrate).
Ron Price