Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Well carbed but no head  (Read 7744 times)

Offline morticaixavier

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7781
  • Underhill VT
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 09:01:08 am »

How long has the beer been in the keg?  Do you carbonate at serving temp?

I've found that with higher serving pressures the beer will initially seem carbonated but has poor head forming and retention.  Given time (maybe a week or so) the head seems to stabilize.

What I think might be happening is that the higher pressure is forcing the gas into suspension, which is why the beer seems carbonated, but that it's not fully dissolved into the liquid when I initially tap the keg.  The pour is good, the carbonation seems to be there, but I get a thin fizzy head that dissipates quickly.  A week or so later, it's a different story.

So, maybe you just need to be patient?

The beer has been in the keg now about a week at 30psi at 40F.

The root beer is clear as well so there is is nothing suspended and yes, it is a full 10% ABV.

Like I mentioned, the co2 appears to be fully absorbed as there are a ton of bubbles rising from the bottom of the pour from start to finish and it tastes well carbonated.

 The tiny thin head that is forming is not dissipating quickly and there is nice lacing as you drink it.

I guess I'll see how it develops over another week or so but I'm thinking it has something to do with the root beer extract oils and ingredients that might be limiting the head production.

I've never used in but I think commercial soft root beers often use a heading powder of some sort (maltodextrin maybe?) to get that long lasting big thick foam.

I suspect, and this is totally a suspicion based in my own hippie dippy view of the world in which 'old' and 'natural' food techniques are ALWAYS better than 'new' and 'engineered' food techniques (I jest, but just a bit). that if you used the traditional herbs and spices to make your brew you would get a robust and long lasting head of foam which is what the heading powder is supposed to emulate.

You know, I just had a thought, what about a little flaked wheat? triticale, which is a hybrid between wheat and rye, is extremely neutral in beer (I found out to my sadness when I had 10 gallons of triticale saison that was just meh) and should boost your proteins some.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8198
  • Redmond, WA
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 09:07:05 am »
I use a heading agent in my sodas to get good foam.  Maltodextrin works, and I have some gum arabic but have not tried it yet.  I still don't get a big foam stand though.
Tom Schmidlin

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 09:29:47 am »
So to follow up, last night I tried a pour from about 6-8" straight down into the glass. I could see a nice 1/4" or so of carbonation and head trying to form just below the surface and got about 1/16" of head, nice and tan but that's it.

I'm going to assume that whatever is in the extract, oils, etc are probably preventing a decent head from actually forming as the this layer was retained and there was nice lacing on the glass, thanks for the input everyone!

I assume your glasses are "beer clean"?  You could try a salt scrub to be sure.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Jimmy K

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3643
  • Delaware
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 09:54:58 am »
I've never used in but I think commercial soft root beers often use a heading powder of some sort (maltodextrin maybe?) to get that long lasting big thick foam.
I toured Fordham once and in their section of soda ingredients (they make Old Dominion sodas) they had boxes of 'concentrated foam'.
Delmarva United Homebrewers - President by inverse coup - former president ousted himself.
AHA Member since 2006
BJCP Certified: B0958

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 10:47:36 am »
This is too funny you all just chimed in with the same thoughts! Just got off the phone with a company and apparently foam enhancing products are quite common in both home and commercial sodas!

Here's what I need:http://homemadesodacompany.com/foamenhancer.aspx in case anyone else is looking as well!

Thanks for all the thoughts, gonna order some up!
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 02:35:49 pm »
i popped into the local LHBS and picked up some malto dextrine to give a try until I can order the other stuff,
anyone with a suggestion on how much to use for a 3 gallon batch?

Should I boil it up first in a little water and then add it, I assume so......?
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8198
  • Redmond, WA
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2013, 12:12:56 am »
Yes, boil it first.  It has a tendency to clump too, so whisk it or something to get it mixed in the water.  I would use about 3 oz in the 3 gallon batch, maybe a little more.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2013, 05:58:31 am »
Yes, boil it first.  It has a tendency to clump too, so whisk it or something to get it mixed in the water.  I would use about 3 oz in the 3 gallon batch, maybe a little more.

Thanks Tom,

I decided to go with about 2.5 oz boiled and added last night so I'll give it a day or two to settle in and see how it works. I figured if necessary I can always add a bit more if needed.

Gary
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline Slowbrew

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2857
  • The Slowly Losing IT Brewery in Urbandale, IA
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2013, 07:53:37 am »

How long has the beer been in the keg?  Do you carbonate at serving temp?

I've found that with higher serving pressures the beer will initially seem carbonated but has poor head forming and retention.  Given time (maybe a week or so) the head seems to stabilize.

What I think might be happening is that the higher pressure is forcing the gas into suspension, which is why the beer seems carbonated, but that it's not fully dissolved into the liquid when I initially tap the keg.  The pour is good, the carbonation seems to be there, but I get a thin fizzy head that dissipates quickly.  A week or so later, it's a different story.

So, maybe you just need to be patient?

The beer has been in the keg now about a week at 30psi at 40F.

The root beer is clear as well so there is is nothing suspended and yes, it is a full 10% ABV.

Like I mentioned, the co2 appears to be fully absorbed as there are a ton of bubbles rising from the bottom of the pour from start to finish and it tastes well carbonated.

 The tiny thin head that is forming is not dissipating quickly and there is nice lacing as you drink it.

I guess I'll see how it develops over another week or so but I'm thinking it has something to do with the root beer extract oils and ingredients that might be limiting the head production.

I've never used in but I think commercial soft root beers often use a heading powder of some sort (maltodextrin maybe?) to get that long lasting big thick foam.

I suspect, and this is totally a suspicion based in my own hippie dippy view of the world in which 'old' and 'natural' food techniques are ALWAYS better than 'new' and 'engineered' food techniques (I jest, but just a bit). that if you used the traditional herbs and spices to make your brew you would get a robust and long lasting head of foam which is what the heading powder is supposed to emulate.

You know, I just had a thought, what about a little flaked wheat? triticale, which is a hybrid between wheat and rye, is extremely neutral in beer (I found out to my sadness when I had 10 gallons of triticale saison that was just meh) and should boost your proteins some.

Ttriticale??  Do you want to kill all the Tribnles?  You must be a Klingon.  ;D

Wheat might be worth a shot in the next batch but it sounds like there are other options to fix the current one.

Interesting stuff.

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 05:54:41 pm »
Update: added about 60 grams of malto dextrine. Mouthfeel is slightly creamier and better. Head formation is a bit better but still dissipates rather quickly. Here's a before photo: and here's an after:

Next batch I'm going to try the foam enhancer product posted previously.
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 06:02:51 pm »
Looks just fine to me. How's the lacing?

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 08:03:09 am »
Looks just fine to me. How's the lacing?

Lacing is great! Taste is great! Head formation is better too!
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 11:24:53 am »
Sounds like you got it licked then

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8198
  • Redmond, WA
Re: Well carbed but no head
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2013, 01:22:49 am »
Awesome, thanks for the update.
Tom Schmidlin