Author Topic: Concentrated boils and hop utilization  (Read 1390 times)

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:02 PM »
I have been thinking about writing this up and sumitting, but as I am retired, it is hard to find the time, err motivation.
Jeff Rankert
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Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 02:15:25 PM »
Would anyone like to collaborate? I think there are several variables that could be explored. Equipement would be different for different brewers. We could standardize to RO water and certain salts added. Hops would need to be common. Procedure would be agreed upon.

I could see doing Pils malt, Maris Otter, LME , DME to see if there are difference to break material quntity. I would split batches, boil one with hops, boil-chill-remove break, boil again and add hops for each.

What does any one think?

Edit - same yeast and pitch rates.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:25:19 PM by hopfenundmalz »
Jeff Rankert
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Offline hubie

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 08:06:46 AM »
I like the idea.  Another way to get one with no break would be to use only sucrose to get the gravity up, though I suppose you'd need to make sure you match the pH with the malt batches. 

For a collaborator you might want to approach Brad Sturgeon of Monmouth College.  He is a homebrewer and professor, and he and his students do IBU measurements in the lab.  I have listened to several podcasts where he was involved in some kind of IBU experiment or another so this would probably pique his interest.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 08:27:18 AM »
Not that it adds anything new to this thread, but as I was reading the latest Zymurgy last night I noticed that the article on hop bursting by Mitch Steele makes reference to reduced utilization in higher gravity wort.

Which gives me some comfort that I'm not crazy.

I'd love to say I'm willing to collaborate, Jeff, but with three kids I hardly have time to brew as it is.  Good luck.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 08:58:49 AM »
You gotta think pils malt gives the most break.

I'd mash and take the wort, split it and then boil one half just long enough to get break then let it settle.  Take the calrified wort off and then match the two wort volumes and do a side by side brew.  Analyze the two of these for IBUs.  This ought to give you some idea of the effect of break material.

Of course, other than general scientific knowledge, what practical significance does this have?  I don't see anyone pre-clarifying wort like this as a general practice.  It costs more in time and energy than you could evere hope to save in hops.
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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 09:36:44 AM »
Of course, other than general scientific knowledge, what practical significance does this have?  I don't see anyone pre-clarifying wort like this as a general practice.  It costs more in time and energy than you could evere hope to save in hops.

For home brewers, I'd definitely agree. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a scale at which it becomes viable, though. You could bring the wort up to a boil in the wort receiver, then whirlpool out the break material and move the clear wort over to the kettle to begin the boil proper.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2013, 10:11:58 AM »
Of course, other than general scientific knowledge, what practical significance does this have?  I don't see anyone pre-clarifying wort like this as a general practice.  It costs more in time and energy than you could evere hope to save in hops.

My original question stemmed from seeing posts where people were saying wort concentration/gravity has no impact on hop utilization so there is no need to adjust your hopping rate if you're doing a concentrated boil and/or a higher gravity beer.

That's a very different statement from saying that the impact on hop utilization comes from the increased break material and not the sugar content of a concentrated wort.  For all practical purposes, it's immaterial if the impact comes from sugars or break material as long as we know that utilization is decreased.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2013, 12:31:13 PM »
I'm guessing AB would've figured this out already if it were in fact the case.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2013, 12:35:09 PM »
My original question stemmed from seeing posts where people were saying wort concentration/gravity has no impact on hop utilization so there is no need to adjust your hopping rate if you're doing a concentrated boil and/or a higher gravity beer.

That's a very different statement from saying that the impact on hop utilization comes from the increased break material and not the sugar content of a concentrated wort.  For all practical purposes, it's immaterial if the impact comes from sugars or break material as long as we know that utilization is decreased.
Understood, but I'm not sure theres ever been any direct evidence that it was the sugar content either, and I've certianly never heard a molecular mechanism behind it.  there just the correlation, and it could be sugar or break or something we havne't yet thought about.

Although, one would assume that it is the sugar level if you added a good amount of table sugar to say a Belgian tripel wort, and still had to use the extra hops.  Although at 20% I suppose you might not notice.
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Re: Concentrated boils and hop utilization
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »
I'm guessing AB would've figured this out already if it were in fact the case.
+1 .  If nothing else I bet they'd have figured it out. OTOH when you hop as lightly as they do it's barely perceptible regardless.  ;)
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