Author Topic: hop stand vs. flame out addition  (Read 2212 times)

Offline goschman

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hop stand vs. flame out addition
« on: November 07, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »
Hi All-

I am formulating a pale ale recipe. I have never tried a hopstand but have been interested in trying it out. By "hopstand", I mean a hop addition after the wort has cooled below 170F or so.

I plan to do a FWH, 20 min, and either a 5 min, flameout, or hopstand addition. I will be dry hopping as well. My question is if I had to choose one of the 3 late additions which would you recommend? I will be keeping my IBUs around 35 and am going for light bitternes with good hop flavor and aroma. I assume many would recommend doing all 3 but I am curious about the impact of each separate addition.

So if you could only choose one which would you choose?
1.) FWH, 20, 5, dry hop
2.) FWH, 20, Flame Out, dry hop
3.) FWH, 20, hopstand, dry hop

The plan right now is to FWH with Bravo, use an equal amount of Cascade, Centennial, Amarillo for the last 2 additions and possibly dry hop with Simcoe.

Online kramerog

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 12:14:33 PM »
I vote for 4) FWH, flameout, dryhop!  Why not start the hopstand at flameout?
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Offline goschman

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 12:20:03 PM »
I vote for 4) FWH, flameout, dryhop!  Why not start the hopstand at flameout?

I have read that certain volatile hop compounds will boil off at temps as low as 150F. Apparently by adding below certain temps those compounds are more likely to stick around and impact the beer with more intense flavor and aroma. This is just how I understand it from very limited research.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 12:23:58 PM by goschman »

Online kramerog

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2013, 12:40:59 PM »
I doubt that you there would be much benefit from doing a hopstand starting at 170F vs. waiting for the boil to end.  I think the desired reactions in a hopstand occur faster at a higher temp so starting at a lower temp would probably result in more flavor and aroma compounds being removed during fermentation.  While hops may have compounds that boil when pure at 150 F, those compounds are not present in a pure state in the hops and in the boil. 

Anyway whatever I said is just an opinion.  It would be interesting to see what differences there would be.
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Offline goschman

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2013, 12:44:16 PM »
Yeah I obviously don't know much about it thus my post.

Offline erockrph

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 04:58:25 PM »
I vote for 4) FWH, flameout, dryhop!  Why not start the hopstand at flameout?

I have read that certain volatile hop compounds will boil off at temps as low as 150F. Apparently by adding below certain temps those compounds are more likely to stick around and impact the beer with more intense flavor and aroma. This is just how I understand it from very limited research.

I think the main reason why you'd want to start your hop stand at a lower temp is to minimize the IBU contribution from the flameout hops. This can definitely be useful in helping to take the guesswork out of calculating your IBU's in a beer with a lower amount of IBU's. The volatile hop compounds will come from your dry hops, so don't worry about that.

The tricky part about hopstands is determining how many IBU's they will contribute. Everyone's system will be different, so there is no real standard rule of thumb. I generally estimate a 60 minute hop stand as the IBU equivalent of a 20-minute addition, but others find that it could be anywhere from a 15-30 minute addition. I find that it is definitely a softer bitterness (similar to FWH) than a standard 60-minute addition, so that does give you some leeway if you overshoot. My all-hopstand IPA measured 98 IBU's, but tasted closer to a 60-IBU FWH-ed beer.

For your first hopstand beer, I'd target about 20 IBU's from the FWH addition, then do a 60 minute hop stand calculated as a 15-IBU addition at 20 minutes. You can then tweak your process based on what your palate tells you. I'd skip the 20-minute addition, since the hop stand is going to give you a crapload of flavor.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 05:22:41 PM »
I normally do hopstands on AIPA/IIPA styles, and occasionally do one on an APA. When I do one on a Pale Ale I do it for ~ 45 minutes along with dry hopping of 2 -2.5 oz (7 days).  I totally agree that the bitterness obtained is more akin to FWH, ie., softer. Similarly, I calculate a 45 minute stand as a 15 minute addition and especially for an APA, do not add any flavor addition in the boil, relying on hopstand and dry hops for flavor. +1 to erockrph's entire post.
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Offline goschman

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 05:32:41 PM »
I vote for 4) FWH, flameout, dryhop!  Why not start the hopstand at flameout?

I have read that certain volatile hop compounds will boil off at temps as low as 150F. Apparently by adding below certain temps those compounds are more likely to stick around and impact the beer with more intense flavor and aroma. This is just how I understand it from very limited research.

I think the main reason why you'd want to start your hop stand at a lower temp is to minimize the IBU contribution from the flameout hops. This can definitely be useful in helping to take the guesswork out of calculating your IBU's in a beer with a lower amount of IBU's. The volatile hop compounds will come from your dry hops, so don't worry about that.

The tricky part about hopstands is determining how many IBU's they will contribute. Everyone's system will be different, so there is no real standard rule of thumb. I generally estimate a 60 minute hop stand as the IBU equivalent of a 20-minute addition, but others find that it could be anywhere from a 15-30 minute addition. I find that it is definitely a softer bitterness (similar to FWH) than a standard 60-minute addition, so that does give you some leeway if you overshoot. My all-hopstand IPA measured 98 IBU's, but tasted closer to a 60-IBU FWH-ed beer.

For your first hopstand beer, I'd target about 20 IBU's from the FWH addition, then do a 60 minute hop stand calculated as a 15-IBU addition at 20 minutes. You can then tweak your process based on what your palate tells you. I'd skip the 20-minute addition, since the hop stand is going to give you a crapload of flavor.

Thanks for that. I didn't realize that a hopstand would contribute to bitterness. Also, I realized that it would not be a true hopstand for me if I continue to cool after adding the hops. I will probably just simplify and add flameout hops then cool as usual. Not really sure...

Offline beersk

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 10:15:34 AM »
I almost never dry hop anymore if I do a hopstand. I feel I get plenty of aroma and flavor from a 30 minute hopstand.
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Offline Alewyfe

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 10:51:06 AM »
I vote for 4) FWH, flameout, dryhop!  Why not start the hopstand at flameout?

I have read that certain volatile hop compounds will boil off at temps as low as 150F. Apparently by adding below certain temps those compounds are more likely to stick around and impact the beer with more intense flavor and aroma. This is just how I understand it from very limited research.

I think the main reason why you'd want to start your hop stand at a lower temp is to minimize the IBU contribution from the flameout hops. This can definitely be useful in helping to take the guesswork out of calculating your IBU's in a beer with a lower amount of IBU's. The volatile hop compounds will come from your dry hops, so don't worry about that.

The tricky part about hopstands is determining how many IBU's they will contribute. Everyone's system will be different, so there is no real standard rule of thumb. I generally estimate a 60 minute hop stand as the IBU equivalent of a 20-minute addition, but others find that it could be anywhere from a 15-30 minute addition. I find that it is definitely a softer bitterness (similar to FWH) than a standard 60-minute addition, so that does give you some leeway if you overshoot. My all-hopstand IPA measured 98 IBU's, but tasted closer to a 60-IBU FWH-ed beer.

For your first hopstand beer, I'd target about 20 IBU's from the FWH addition, then do a 60 minute hop stand calculated as a 15-IBU addition at 20 minutes. You can then tweak your process based on what your palate tells you. I'd skip the 20-minute addition, since the hop stand is going to give you a crapload of flavor.

Erockrph...Are you adding the hopstand addn at flameout or are you cooling to a specific temp? I've been cooling to ~170 then adding. Not getting much discernable bitterness increase when I do that, though I expect it would test higher.
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Online kramerog

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 11:12:56 AM »
A benefit to doing it at 170 Fis that if you cool quickly to 170 F, you can avoid significant generation of DMS.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 11:16:48 AM »
I've been cooling to ~ 185, then adding hops.  As mentioned I calculate it as a 15 minute addition for a 45 minute stand - seems pretty comparable.
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Offline gymrat

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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 12:05:43 PM »
Do you guys put the lid on the kettle during your hop stand?
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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 12:08:22 PM »
Yep, I do.
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Re: hop stand vs. flame out addition
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 12:10:21 PM »
Do you guys put the lid on the kettle during your hop stand?

Yes
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