Author Topic: Sour Brown not sour enough  (Read 2017 times)

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Sour Brown not sour enough
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 04:01:27 PM »
I seem to recall that pedio can also break down dextrins although much slower than brett or lacto. Brett might be the most efficient at tearing up dextrins but once the dextrins are broken down the shorter chain sugars would be available for the bacteria to consume to produce acid.
Pedio and lacto are morphologically similar and strains have been reclassified even recently.  But within each classification there is variation, so I would say maybe the pedio can break it down and maybe it can't.

You may be right about the brett being most efficient, but I haven't seen any data on that.

For your entertainment, here is a 2009 article reclassifying pedio dextrinicus as lacto dextrinicus
http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/59/3/615.full

riveting.

**EDIT TO ADD SOMETHING OTHER THAN SNARK**
I thought this was interesting in context of this thread. (Emphasis is mine)

"[...]several phenotypic properties also distinguish P. dextrinicus from other pediococci, including the lack of acid production from growth on trehalose, production of CO2 from gluconate, lack of growth at pH 4.5 and the ability to hydrolyse starch and dextrin (Dellaglio & Torriani, 2006; Franz et al., 2006; Holzapfel et al., 2006; Simpson & Taguchi, 1995; Weiss, 1992)."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:04:11 PM by morticaixavier »
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Offline garc_mall

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Re: Sour Brown not sour enough
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 04:50:09 PM »
So, here is Raj Apte's article, from the wayback machine.  http://web.archive.org/web/20110204051315/http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

From that, here is where I got the idea of adding starchy water (which I did by just boiling water with some flour in it).

Quote
I also make seitan from wheat, periodically. The leftover starchy water can be boiled and added to a sour ale fermentation. I add wheat starch to the tertiary fermenter to prolong the fermentation. The starch haze seems to be reduced in less than 6 months.

Any mashing procedure for sour ale needs to balance three elements: fermentable sugars, dextrines, and starches. Fermentable sugars are consumed rather quickly and produce alcohol and some acididy. Additional acidity and Brettanomyces funk come from bacterial amylase acting on starches during aging. Dextrines are pretty much unfermentable (unless lambic culture is used including enterobacteria). Dextrines provide sweetness.

That's all I got.
In a Keg: Flanders Red Ale, Rye Altbier, Cascade/Topaz Pale
Fermenting: Flanders Red, Saison

Online tschmidlin

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Re: Sour Brown not sour enough
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2013, 12:38:54 AM »
So, here is Raj Apte's article, from the wayback machine.  http://web.archive.org/web/20110204051315/http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml
That's some pretty interesting stuff.  It appears he is saying the starch is fermented in a sour ale fermentation.  Then he says dextrin is unfermentable.

Here's the problem though - dextrin is broken down starch.  They can break down and ferment starch but they can't ferment starch that is already broken?  No.  If they can ferment the starch they can ferment the dextrin. ;)
Tom Schmidlin

Offline garc_mall

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Re: Sour Brown not sour enough
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2013, 10:45:52 AM »
So, here is Raj Apte's article, from the wayback machine.  http://web.archive.org/web/20110204051315/http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml
That's some pretty interesting stuff.  It appears he is saying the starch is fermented in a sour ale fermentation.  Then he says dextrin is unfermentable.

Here's the problem though - dextrin is broken down starch.  They can break down and ferment starch but they can't ferment starch that is already broken?  No.  If they can ferment the starch they can ferment the dextrin. ;)

I agree that they can probably ferment down some dextrines. But, similar to alpha/beta amylase, aren't there some forms of dextrines that aren't reducible any more? I think that may be what he is referring to. (I haven't taken Science since High School, so I am likely to be wrong)

I know that they can break down the starch. I had extensive starch haze in my flanders after adding the boiled flour, and after about 2 months, it was crystal clear again.
In a Keg: Flanders Red Ale, Rye Altbier, Cascade/Topaz Pale
Fermenting: Flanders Red, Saison

Online tschmidlin

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Re: Sour Brown not sour enough
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2013, 01:11:48 AM »
It is possible that they don't have the proper enzyme to break the 1-6 linkages, but then they would not be able to break them in the starch either.  Both starch and dextrin are made up of glucose linked through either 1-4 or 1-6 bonds, the difference is starch is bigger.  So if they can break down the starch except for the 1-6 bonds, they can do the same to the dextrin.  They will break them down the same way.

Alpha and beta amylase both break 1-4 linkages, they just vary in where in the chain they break the bond.  Something like limit dextrinase will break 1-6 bonds, that is found in barley.  Whether brett, pedio, or lacto has that or another enzyme that does the same thing, I don't know.
Tom Schmidlin