Author Topic: Kettle Carmelization  (Read 1385 times)

Offline yso191

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Kettle Carmelization
« on: November 19, 2013, 10:20:13 AM »
I'm going to brew a Scottish 80/ when My Son-in-law gets here for Thanksgiving.  Here is the recipe:

Glasgow Express
Scottish Export 80/-
Type: All Grain
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer: Steve Harrison
Boil Size: 7.50 gal 
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients
8 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)  92.1 %
8.0 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM)  5.8 %
3.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)  2.2 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 17.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Scottish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1728) [124.21 ml] Yeast 5 -
 
Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.044 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 % 
Bitterness: 17.0 IBUs
Est Color: 10.9 SRM 
Mash Name: A Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 11.0 oz

My question relates to wondering whether I should pull a gallon of first runnings, bring it in to the stove and boil it to increase melanoidins (though this is most often referred to as Kettle Carmelization).

First, should I?  In other words do most find this contributes a pleasing flavor?  It is described in my reading as 'Toffee,' which sounds great to me.  I assume this is best done with a fairly aggressive boil, correct?  Also when is this done?  When it is reduced in volume by half or what?  It also occurs to me that the key may be color rather than volume.

Thoughts?
Steve

Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 10:37:19 AM »
I've done this. The flavor is very nice. Your recipe will already be darker with the brown malt though. My recipe is just base malt and 2oz of roasted barley.  Take a gallon of first runnings from the mash and boil until thick and syrupy. The bubbles will become very large and linger as it thickens, and the wort will be almost black. A gallon boils down to a quart or less at this point. Add that back in whenever it's ready, you'll probably need a scraper.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 10:43:34 AM »
I've done it on a Wee Heavy with very good results. If done right (no scorching) it lends a very rich, yet pleasing toffee/caramel like flavor in the finished beer. Worth it IMO.
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Offline yso191

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »
Nice!  I will totally do this then.  I should probably drop the Brown Malt if it would make the resulting beer too dark.
Steve

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 11:11:34 AM »
I don't think you need the brown malt, as you say.

The General guideline I like best is 'boil till your scared'. a gallon to a pint wouldn't even be over kill. the bubbles will start stacking up like in candy making.

** EDIT TO ADD **

This is actual carmelization  as the sugar content gets high enough that the temp exceeds the magic temp where sugar starts to turn to caramel.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 11:13:13 AM by morticaixavier »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2013, 11:11:47 AM »
I'm going to concentrate some of the first runnings for a Scottish too over Thanksgiving weekend for the first time.  Based on looking at some candy making websites, I'm guessing the temperature will be ~240 F when it's time to stop.  Anyway, I'm not going to use the temperature of the boil as my guide; I want it as a reference point for future boils.

Anyone know what boil temperature I  can expect to reach?
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2013, 11:25:26 AM »
Anyone know what boil temperature I  can expect to reach?
I don't know, but that reminds me. Let it cool below 200F before adding it to your boiling wort or it might cause an impressive boil over.
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Offline yso191

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 11:34:44 AM »
Anyone know what boil temperature I  can expect to reach?
I don't know, but that reminds me. Let it cool below 200F before adding it to your boiling wort or it might cause an impressive boil over.

Great advice!  Thanks
Steve

Offline kramerog

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 11:40:06 AM »
Does it make more sense to add the wort in the boil kettle to the concentrated wort and adding the mix to the  boil kettle than to add the concentrated wort to the boil kettle?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 12:27:40 PM »
Does it make more sense to add the wort in the boil kettle to the concentrated wort and adding the mix to the  boil kettle than to add the concentrated wort to the boil kettle?

I think adding a small portion of water at or near 212 to a portion of sugar syrup at or above 240 would increase the risk of explosively sudden boiling. But I could well be wrong.

I suspect adding 1 pint to 1 quart of very hot syrup to 6 gallons of boiling liquid would make little impression but it can't hurt to be a little safe and give the syrup a couple stirs to bring the temp down.

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Offline redbeerman

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 12:36:11 PM »
When the concentrated wort begins to cool in will become very gooey almost caramel-like.  It would be best to add hot wort to the concentrated wort goop after it has cooled some to get it to a viscosity that will easily pour.  This is what I have done with my wee heavies in the past and it works fine.  If you are taking it to 240 it is just above soft ball phase (candyspeak).  We have made candy every year for Christmas for the past 25 years, and have had some interesting outcomes. :o
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 12:38:49 PM by redbeerman »
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 01:32:53 PM »
Jim, have you made praline brittle? Candy heated to thread stage, then add a bit of baking soda and it explodes into foam and quickly cools into airy hard candy (usually done with nuts added). It's spectacular! Use a big pot!

Edit: I meant hard crack - 300F.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:53:09 PM by mtnrockhopper »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »
Do you stop concentrating wort in the thread stage or do you continue into the various ball stages?  Or is candymaking not relevant here?
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 01:52:37 PM »
Candymaking is not relevant here. //sheepishly backs away//
 
Actually, measuring temperature would help make it reproducable. But I think most people just eyeball it based on color and thickness.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Kettle Carmelization
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »
Candymaking is not relevant here. //sheepishly backs away//
 
Actually, measuring temperature would help make it reproducable. But I think most people just eyeball it based on color and thickness.
When I do it for a wee heavy I just eyeball it until it looks about like LME. That's at ~ the 1 qt left stage. I was blown away the first time I tried it at how good the beer was. Can't duplicate it any other way.
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