[bluesman]

Martin - what is your suggestion for the ppm levels of calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride, etc...?

Although it goes against everything we brewers hold dear, I keep seeing evidence that a 40 or 50 ppm minimum calcium content may not be the best for flavor in those light European lagers. The boiled Munich profile might only have around 12 to 20 ppm Ca and the rest of the ions are low too...excepting for bicarbonate.  That profile suggests that all the flavor ions are less than 20 ppm. That evidence makes sense since those Munich beers are malt focused and there is little need for the water to impinge on that.  The same attribute applies to Pilsen water...very little flavor ion content to color the malt focus. 

The one thing that is also apparent from the boiled Munich profile is that it still has a lot of bicarbonate and the brewers would have to dose with acid malt to neutralize that component. For some beer styles, it will be a significant dose.  But I don't expect that most people would taste it. But there might be nuances from the lactic acid that do color the beer flavor.  That is why it's imperative that brewers use lactic acid or acid malt when brewing German style beers.

Thanks Martin!

[bluesman]

I'm mashing as I type. See my recipe details. Thanks for all of the great tips folks!

Magic Dragon(Munich Dunkel)
Munich Dunkel
Type: All Grain Date: 11/25/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %

I targeted this water profile
Ca - 100ppm
Mg - 8ppm
Na - 3ppm
SO4 - 17ppm
Cl - 10ppm
HCO3 - 250ppm
Additions:
5.5gal Poland Spring Water - finishing volume
1.1g MgSO4 (Epsum Salt)
2.7g NaHCO3 (Baking Soda)
8.2g CaCO3 (Chalk)
-doughed in protein rest temp 133F for 10min
-heat/recirculate mash to saccharification temp 144F for 40min
-heat/recirculate mash to saccharification temp 158F for 20min
-recirculate/heat to mash out @ 170F
-fly sparge 168F
 
Ingredients:
8 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 71.9 %
2 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 18.0 %
6.0 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.4 %
4.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.2 %
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (aids in lautering)
1.25 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 17.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 2.1 IBUs
 
Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 % 
Bitterness: 19.6 IBUs
Est Color: 19.4 SRM 

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Protein Rest Add 19.00 qt of water at 140.3 F 133.0 F 10 min
Saccharification Heat to 144.0 F over 15 min 144.0 F 40 min
Saccharification Heat to 158.0 F over 4 min 158.0 F 20 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min
 
Created with BeerSmith
 

[blatz]

i woulda thought you'd do 144 for 20 min and 158 for 40, being that its a malt forward style, no?

[mabrungard]

Ron,

The chalk is not needed or desired for that mash. Both the calcium and bicarbonate are far too high.

[hopfenundmalz]

Ron. Was the Ca enough to offset that HCO3? Was the pH on target?

[bluesman]

Ron,

The chalk is not needed or desired for that mash. Both the calcium and bicarbonate are far too high.

OK...I only added half of the salts to the mash so far.

That should leave me with this:

Ca - 60ppm
Mg - 2.5ppm
Na - 14.3ppm
SO4 - 9.6ppm
Cl - 5.3ppm
HCO3 - 127.2ppm

[bluesman]

Ron. Was the Ca enough to offset that HCO3? Was the pH on target?

I'm hoping the Carafa will keep me in acceptable limits. My experience has shown this to be the case.

[bluesman]

Ron,

The chalk is not needed or desired for that mash. Both the calcium and bicarbonate are far too high.

I based this water profile from Kai's research on his website.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Various_water_recipes

[mabrungard]

Ron,

The chalk is not needed or desired for that mash. Both the calcium and bicarbonate are far too high.

I based this water profile from Kai's research on his website.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Various_water_recipes

Ah, sorry to see that on Kai's site. While it's accurate for the tap water, its not what is brewed with.

Do review my presentation on Historic Water from this year's AHA convention.  In the old days, the water was pre-boiled to knock out some of the excessive alkalinity and the calcium goes out with it.  After boiling, Munich water is a semi OK water to brew with as long as you then attend to the remaining alkalinity.

[bluesman]

Ron,

The chalk is not needed or desired for that mash. Both the calcium and bicarbonate are far too high.

I based this water profile from Kai's research on his website.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Various_water_recipes

Ah, sorry to see that on Kai's site. While it's accurate for the tap water, its not what is brewed with.

Do review my presentation on Historic Water from this year's AHA convention.  In the old days, the water was pre-boiled to knock out some of the excessive alkalinity and the calcium goes out with it.  After boiling, Munich water is a semi OK water to brew with as long as you then attend to the remaining alkalinity.

I'll follow up on this presentation. Thanks.

I only went with half of the prescribed salts to finish with this:

Ca - 60ppm
Mg - 2.5ppm
Na - 14.3ppm
SO4 - 9.6ppm
Cl - 5.3ppm
HCO3 - 127.2ppm

[hopfenundmalz]

This thread has been fun and educational. I have set up for brewing tomorrow, grain is milled, and I used Martin's Munich Boiled water specs. Will see if I hit the target pH. Doing a hochkurz double decoction, should be a great day to brew a lager.

[AmandaK]

This thread has been fun and educational.

Indeed. I wonder if it will become as long as the "That German Lager Flavor" thread. 

Either way, I need to brew a Munich Dunkel here soon. Might be my first 10 gallon batch.

[hopfenundmalz]

At the 158F Alpha rest. Going pretty good so far. 

[bluesman]

At the 158F Alpha rest. Going pretty good so far. 

The malty aroma from the boil is still lingering in my garage.

[redbeerman]

Doing a diacetyl rest on mine. Ready for extended lagering in a day or so.