Author Topic: To clone or not to clone  (Read 2725 times)

Offline mugwort

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2013, 03:36:55 PM »
Lotta good responses to some good questions.

I tend to avoid cloning not the least because I couldn't follow a recipe--even my own--if my life depended on it.  Each and every time I think I've made a recipe, come brewday it's open season.

Only beer I've tried to clone is Arrogant Bastard, half because it's delicious and half because the recipe is classified.
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Offline alestateyall

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2013, 05:53:33 PM »

I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2013, 07:21:52 PM »

Offline phunhog

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2013, 09:27:49 PM »
The other part is that if you are brewing "classic styles" in many cases you are essentially brewing a clone of some commercial beer.   

Offline speed

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2013, 09:38:15 PM »

I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!
Here's what I got,
6 lb 6 row
4 lb 2 row
1 lb flaked maize
1/2 oz magnum, 1/4 oz cluster, 1/2 oz fuggle all at 15 minutes
90 minute mash
90 minute boil
2035 yeast
Mash at 148
Ferment at 50-55
You could probably cut back on the base grains to get the abv a little lower, mine came in at 6.5%
I did a step mash, 122  for 30 minutes and 1hour at 148

Offline alestateyall

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2013, 09:56:11 PM »


I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!
Here's what I got,
6 lb 6 row
4 lb 2 row
1 lb flaked maize
1/2 oz magnum, 1/4 oz cluster, 1/2 oz fuggle all at 15 minutes
90 minute mash
90 minute boil
2035 yeast
Mash at 148
Ferment at 50-55
You could probably cut back on the base grains to get the abv a little lower, mine came in at 6.5%
I did a step mash, 122  for 30 minutes and 1hour at 148

Thanks! 6.5% must be the pre-prohibition Schlitz ;)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 07:05:13 AM »
I think true cloning of a beer is entirely possible.  The ingredients available to homebrewers are exactly the same as what the commercial brewers use.  A lot of commercial brewers freely give out their recipes.  So I figure it's worth a shot trying to duplicate my favorites.  I have brewed numerous clone recipes in the past, and while I never actually cloned one IMO, I always figured it was my own fault for not trying hard enough, as I rarely brew the same beer twice, always wanting to try something new.  However that's about to change, as I've set my heart on trying to clone two beers, Anchor Porter and Pete's Wicked Ale, which I'll be working on in the next few months.  Now of course they don't make Pete's anymore, so the "cloning" bit will have to be based on my taste memory.  But the Anchor, I will compare side-by-side with the real thing, brewing it at least twice if not 3 or 4 times, tweaking each time until it tastes exactly the same, if possible.  Even if I can't clone it, I think it will be fun to try and a great learning experience.

I do think an important part of the cloning process might be in aging your beer for several months.  When you brew your own, it is super fresh.  When you buy it at the store, it is probably already 4 months old or more (at least by the time it gets to the front of the shelves in Wisconsin).  So it's only fair to compare "old" homebrew to "brand new" store bought beer, otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples.  Then of course after you think you've cloned the beer, you'll need to decide whether you prefer to drink your clone young or aged, and this is largely subject to personal preference.  I guess what I'm also saying is, it's entirely possible to clone a beer and not have it taste exactly the same as what you buy on the shelf.  Your own homebrew might be a clone but taste even better than what you can buy, due either to freshness, or to slight tweaks that you have done with the recipe, or both.

All in theory.  I haven't cloned a beer... yet... but I do think it is an excellent learning experience, and the potential benefits are great, so I am going to try.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2013, 10:59:57 AM »
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2013, 11:01:20 AM »
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2013, 11:04:07 AM »
I do think an important part of the cloning process might be in aging your beer for several months.  When you brew your own, it is super fresh.  When you buy it at the store, it is probably already 4 months old or more (at least by the time it gets to the front of the shelves in Wisconsin).  So it's only fair to compare "old" homebrew to "brand new" store bought beer, otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples.  Then of course after you think you've cloned the beer, you'll need to decide whether you prefer to drink your clone young or aged, and this is largely subject to personal preference.  I guess what I'm also saying is, it's entirely possible to clone a beer and not have it taste exactly the same as what you buy on the shelf.  Your own homebrew might be a clone but taste even better than what you can buy, due either to freshness, or to slight tweaks that you have done with the recipe, or both.

I think that's gonna depend a lot on the particular commercial beer.  If I buy beer that's brewed by a local brewery, it's seldom more than a week or 2 old.
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Offline dbeechum

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2013, 11:40:47 AM »
I'm not a cloner since I tend to faff about with stories and taste ideas, but I get the drive behind the clone - there's something innately satisfying about hitting what you're aiming for.
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Offline punatic

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 11:44:36 AM »


Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)
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Offline yso191

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2013, 11:46:04 AM »
Words are funny things.  So many problems, misunderstandings and even fights come about through incorrect interpretations of what people think another means when using a specific word.  This is why in theology for example the first order of business is always to define terms.

If we don't have a clearly defined meaning of a word that is shared by all who are in the conversation what results is assumptions.  Oddly, human beings have a general tendency to assume negative motivations, states of mind, etc. in someone else, and to excuse or interpret their own actions, thoughts, conclusions much more generously.  In counseling of couples, in politics, et al, this is generally referred to as 'Negative Mind Reading.'

Why am I being so philosophical?  Because I think the real issue is what one thinks 'cloning' means will determine whether they clone or not; or think others should.

Is brewing classic styles cloning?  Is using a recipe from this website cloning?  Is using a kit cloning?  Is brewing a beer based on BJCP guidelines cloning?  One could argue that they all are or none are. 

Cloning for one person could be a general target, for another a highly rigorous, scientific process with double-blind processes and the like.

I for one don't care.  And I guess I'm also arguing for others not to care.  We are all beer brewers.  That is the goal.  If you brew beer and you enjoy it, you/we win.  I think it should matter not a whit to the home brewing community if one is motivated by making exact duplicates of something they love, or by making beers no one has ever had before. 

We will alienate a lot of people if we have a list of acceptable/unacceptable motivations for brewing.



Steve

Offline denny

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2013, 12:04:53 PM »


Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline punatic

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2013, 01:00:27 PM »


Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)

 ::)  why do I baaa-ther?
There is only one success: to be able to spend your life in your own way.


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