Author Topic: To clone or not to clone  (Read 7210 times)

Offline speed

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2013, 02:20:43 PM »
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Thanks Denny. Denny was my Guiana pig. :D

Online HoosierBrew

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2013, 03:51:47 PM »


Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)

 ::)  why do I baaa-ther?

Can't pull the wool over MY eyes !   :D
Jon H.

Offline punatic

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2013, 05:16:38 PM »
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Thanks Denny. Denny was my Guiana pig. :D


Does it involve kool aid and sodium cyanide?   :o
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 10:12:59 PM by punatic »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2013, 08:50:18 PM »
Words are funny things.  So many problems, misunderstandings and even fights come about through incorrect interpretations of what people think another means when using a specific word.  This is why in theology for example the first order of business is always to define terms.

If we don't have a clearly defined meaning of a word that is shared by all who are in the conversation what results is assumptions.  Oddly, human beings have a general tendency to assume negative motivations, states of mind, etc. in someone else, and to excuse or interpret their own actions, thoughts, conclusions much more generously.  In counseling of couples, in politics, et al, this is generally referred to as 'Negative Mind Reading.'

Why am I being so philosophical?  Because I think the real issue is what one thinks 'cloning' means will determine whether they clone or not; or think others should.

Is brewing classic styles cloning?  Is using a recipe from this website cloning?  Is using a kit cloning?  Is brewing a beer based on BJCP guidelines cloning?  One could argue that they all are or none are. 

Cloning for one person could be a general target, for another a highly rigorous, scientific process with double-blind processes and the like.

I for one don't care.  And I guess I'm also arguing for others not to care.  We are all beer brewers.  That is the goal.  If you brew beer and you enjoy it, you/we win.  I think it should matter not a whit to the home brewing community if one is motivated by making exact duplicates of something they love, or by making beers no one has ever had before. 

We will alienate a lot of people if we have a list of acceptable/unacceptable motivations for brewing.

Its probably really hard to literally clone beer (genetically identical to parent), so I'm guessing that it means identical tasting, appearance, aroma.

Offline punatic

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2013, 10:38:44 PM »
I've always found the concept of brewing a "clone" amusing.  I don't know who decided to apply that word to brewing, but it is far from appropriate. 

Asking for a recipe that brews a beer similar to "X" is more accurate. 

When I was less experienced I used recipes as a starting point and went from there, both in brewing and cooking. Now I taste beer or food and choose the ingredients that I think are going to produce the flavor results that I want.  It's very seldom I use recipes anymore. Ingredients vary in flavor quite a lot over time. Most of the time now I choose ingredients based on what I'm trying to create, like painting from a palate of flavors, instead of colors. I learned this from cooking, and apply it to brewing too.  My wife and Chef M taught me how.

Why would I want to brew a clone when I can buy the original?  When I brew, I want to brew something original - something to style, but with my signature on it.

For instance, probably the best beer I brew, and a style I really enjoy drinking is Münchner Helles.  However, I really like the flavor of Hallertauer Hersbrucker hops.  My helles is over-hopped for flavor and aroma for someone used to the Bavarian style, but I don't brew for Bavarians, I brew for me.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 10:54:33 PM by punatic »
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Offline yso191

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2013, 09:02:23 AM »

Its probably really hard to literally clone beer (genetically identical to parent), so I'm guessing that it means identical tasting, appearance, aroma.

Somewhere between really hard and impossible.

But I have such a poor palate, if it is in the neighborhood I couldn't tell the difference.
Steve
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Offline jeffy

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2013, 09:07:00 AM »
I'm with all you guys.  "Clone" is the wrong word, but it sold a lot of books.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Offline chezteth

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2013, 10:39:37 AM »
As with plenty of other homebrewers I have used clone recipes. I think they provide a good starting point. It allows you to know what the beer should taste like when it is finished. However, I agree that making the clone beer taste exactly like the original is difficult. It is possible for a homebrewer to be disappointed in the beer if it doesn't turn out as expected.  Sometimes I like to use clone or other recipes as a starting point then modify for my purposes. If there is a commercial beer I like I prefer to buy it. I like to reserve homebrewing for my own recipes.

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Offline Three

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2013, 03:21:14 PM »
I will be repeating myself here but......  Everything you brew using and following a recipe is a clone.  It never turns out the same.  It turns out as a reasonable facsimile (clone).  Maybe brewing in a lab and having precise control of everything you could "copy" a brew.  Hops get older or are a different crop. Grains change with age and or you use new crops. Then there is the water.  Yeast cell counts in starters?  I could go on but I think that gets the thought out.  The only time it's not cloning is if you just decide to make something up and brew it for the first time.

It's the same for cooking.  Baking is more precise but still has factors that are clone-ish like temperature, humidity, etc.......

Now, if your cloning sheep like punatic.  I believe that is a different definition of "clone".

Okay, Now I want to apologize for the rant.  I had to get that out of my head.  Lets brew!
Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passin by........

Offline punatic

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2013, 03:36:49 PM »
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)
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Offline Three

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2013, 06:16:21 PM »
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)

Now we're talkin'!!! :)
Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passin by........

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2013, 07:03:01 PM »
I don't think it's a clone unless it says clone. The rest just think they are clones. Psy clones

Offline gmac

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2013, 07:37:19 PM »
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)

Pushing sheep through the fence are we?  You really need those gloves with the velcro palms for the best grip....
Personally, I'm with Denny (as usual).  I've tried to clone a few local beers and I've never come super close but they have provided the inspiration for some very good beers.  Some of them, I now like much better than the original to be honest.
I can't really say that I've ever even followed my own recipes 100% accurately so I doubt I'll ever really follow a clone recipe 100% accurately.

Offline Three

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2013, 09:45:02 PM »
I don't think it's a clone unless it says clone. The rest just think they are clones. Psy clones

Psyclone.......

Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passin by........

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: To clone or not to clone
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2013, 08:29:17 AM »
As others have said, I think the attempt at cloning can be a good learning experience when you're starting out.  It can help you identify what particular ingredients lend to a beer. 

I prefer to approach it as benchmarking, though.  I've never really tried to make an exact replica, but I do try to make beers that are similar to ones I've enjoyed.  If the color comes out darker, or the beer is hoppier, or otherwise different, it helps to have that benchmark to fine tune recipes for the next go round.

As far as cloning your own beer, I recently did a side by side tasting of two different years of my strong stout.  Surprisingly, it tasted like two glasses of the same beer even despite the age difference.  So I suppose over the years I've managed to fine tune that one.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton