Author Topic: Gotta Vent about CaraPils  (Read 5044 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:06:28 AM »
Denny, wheat adds more proteins including gluten while barley does not.  That is the contributing factor....

And everything has a flavor but CaraPils is designed specifically not to add flavor to a beer.

Dave

Dave, I gotta disagree here.  Barley malt definitely adds proteins.  And if you use enough carapils, you'll find that it does have its own flavor.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:11:33 AM »
Denny, wheat adds more proteins including gluten while barley does not.  That is the contributing factor....

And everything has a flavor but CaraPils is designed specifically not to add flavor to a beer.

Dave

Dave, I gotta disagree here.  Barley malt definitely adds proteins.  And if you use enough carapils, you'll find that it does have its own flavor.

I'll give you the latter but not the former.  If we are talking absolutes, then you are correct about flavor.

However, Gluten is almost zero in barley while in high quantity in wheat.  This is what gives wheat it's foam stability characteristics.  Big difference.

EDIT:  It's a different protein not found in barley....
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 10:14:39 AM »
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »
The Pilsners I brew have great head retention. 100% Pils malt.

Except for the CAP, 6 row and corn, that has great head retention too.
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Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 10:19:21 AM »
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave

Dave, I just want you to have accurate info to support your bias!  ;)  Here's one of many citations about proteins in barley...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley .  Why do you think hops help to increase foam formation and retention?  It's because the polyphenols in the hops bind the proteins in the beer to create foam.  That happens even without wheat.
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 10:26:29 AM »
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave

Dave, I just want you to have accurate info to support your bias!  ;)  Here's one of many citations about proteins in barley...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley .  Why do you think hops help to increase foam formation and retention?  It's because the polyphenols in the hops bind the proteins in the beer to create foam.  That happens even without wheat.

Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave
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Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 10:27:50 AM »
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 10:57:33 AM »
Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Maybe he's going gluten free?

After reflecting on using carapils (haven't for years, thought about going back to it) I recognize that I don't need it in my beers for head retention as they're doing just fine.

So, as a tool, what other use would you have for it?  My recollection over the past many years has always been that it was advised for head retention.

Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 11:00:29 AM »
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave 
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 11:09:52 AM »
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

barley also has gluten. Those that suffer from Gluten intolerance or celiac disease are not able to safely consume and all barley beer any more than one with wheat it in. Malted grain, whether barley or wheat, has LESS gluten than unmalted grain.

However, the brewers clarex product that reduced gluten so that GI and celiac folks can drink it totally eliminates all gluten from the beer or at least makes the level so low as to be undetectable and has zero effect on head retention as far as I could tell and I actually split a 10 gallon batch with 5 getting the clarex and the other not.

There may be proteins in wheat that are not in barley but it's not gluten. and the question is not whether wheat aids head retention but whether it is needed in an IPA with lots of hops. On this I actually have no opinion except to say that I don't bother and do not have a problem with head retention.
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Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 11:11:42 AM »
Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.

I think of it as a way to add body.  Secondarily, you get a bit of flavor (depending on how much you use) and like any maly addition it will add protein that could possibly aid foam formation and retention.  But as this points out http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques if you have other problems, adding carapils or wheat won't help.
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Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 11:12:50 AM »
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 11:15:56 AM »
Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.

I think of it as a way to add body.  Secondarily, you get a bit of flavor (depending on how much you use) and like any maly addition it will add protein that could possibly aid foam formation and retention.  But as this points out http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques if you have other problems, adding carapils or wheat won't help.

Haven't thought about using it just to add body.  Maybe it's the ingredient I need to help make the perfect Belgian Blonde.  I've just not been happy with the one's I've made and one of the issues has been that they don't have enough body.  Mashing higher helped a bit, but still didn't get me what I want.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2013, 11:19:40 AM »
The article is old but here is the excerpt....

Barley and Wheat
The most striking physical difference between barley and wheat is that wheat lacks barley’s familiar husk. The kernel is also a different shape — more rounded than barley, with a pronounced groove. Chart 1 illustrates the essential differences in composition. Wheat is significantly lower in cellulose and lipids, and higher in protein and starch than barley.

The varying protein level is the most significant difference. For one thing, wheat offers higher yields. Typical pale malt extracts run from 80 to 83 percent, while wheat malt extracts run from 84 to 88 percent.

The higher protein levels of wheat greatly enhance its contribution to foam stability - which means a better, longer-lasting head on the beer - and increase the beer’s mouthfeel (its sensation of fullness in the drinker’s mouth). The downside, and there always seems to be a downside, is that the higher protein levels can create problems in the brewhouse and make the beer hazy. Filtering out the haze can lessen the finished beer’s stability.

Not only are the levels of proteins different between barley and wheat, but the proteins themselves are different. Glutens, which are so critical to the formation of a good bread loaf, are virtually non-existent in barley yet make up 80 percent of wheat proteins. These high-molecular-weight proteins, which allow a loaf to stretch and then hold its shape, are the same proteins that can build a dense head in beer.
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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2013, 11:21:15 AM »
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)
Dave Zach