Author Topic: Gotta Vent about CaraPils  (Read 5216 times)

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2013, 11:32:42 AM »
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

I propose that this be settled with feats of strength.

It is, after all, the season for Festivus.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2013, 11:33:51 AM »
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

I propose that this be settled with feats of strength.

It is, after all, the season for Festivus.

Are you holding the Festivus pole?  Denny would kick my ass, no fair.....
Dave Zach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2013, 11:42:57 AM »
Love a good Seinfeld reference. I think you have to start with the airing of grievances, then go 'til somebody gets pinned.
Jon H.

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2013, 11:52:11 AM »
This chart would support my position that the amount of protein and type of gluten is different in Wheat and Barley.  Now to find out if there is something that can relate each specifically to foam stability....

Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)
Grain-Type of Gluten-% Total Protein
Wheat-Gliadin-69%
Corn-Zien-55%
Sorghum-Kafirin-52%
Barley-Hordein-46-52%
Rye-Secalin-30-50%
Millet-Panicin-40%
Oats-Avenin-16%
Teff-Penniseiten-11%
Rice-Orzenin-5%
 
Based on information supplied in ‘Glutenology’, Dr Peter Osborne-2011
 "I have seen people gradually progress through this table, becoming intolerant to one after another grain almost in order of the level of gluten found."

EDIT:  Link to article-http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 11:54:29 AM by davidgzach »
Dave Zach

Offline denny

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2013, 11:57:45 AM »
No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

Aye.  My wife never lets me forget that....
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2013, 12:46:12 PM »
This chart would support my position that the amount of protein and type of gluten is different in Wheat and Barley.  Now to find out if there is something that can relate each specifically to foam stability....

Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)
Grain-Type of Gluten-% Total Protein
Wheat-Gliadin-69%
Corn-Zien-55%
Sorghum-Kafirin-52%
Barley-Hordein-46-52%
Rye-Secalin-30-50%
Millet-Panicin-40%
Oats-Avenin-16%
Teff-Penniseiten-11%
Rice-Orzenin-5%
 
Based on information supplied in ‘Glutenology’, Dr Peter Osborne-2011
 "I have seen people gradually progress through this table, becoming intolerant to one after another grain almost in order of the level of gluten found."

EDIT:  Link to article-http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html
I don't believe this table is accurate.  Specifically, I don't believe that gliadin is 69% of the total protein in wheat.  What about glutenin?  Maybe glutenin + gliadin gets you to 69%.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2013, 12:56:11 PM »
Tom, I read that as Gliadin is the name of the Gluten in wheat and that there is 69% total protein in wheat.  They are mutually exclusive...

Dave
Dave Zach

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2013, 01:16:20 PM »
I take back my "stands to reason" and offer the following.  This should help my cause:  From Beer: A Quality Perspective



Therefore Wheat and CaraPils will have different effects on foam stability.  Fun exercise.

Time for a frothy IPA which I made without Wheat or CaraPils..... ;D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:22:41 PM by davidgzach »
Dave Zach

Offline yso191

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2013, 01:37:34 PM »
Good thread.  People should go on a rant on a regular basis - we'd all learn a lot!
Steve
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Offline alestateyall

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2013, 01:42:00 PM »
Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...
Tommy M.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2013, 01:45:39 PM »
Tom, I read that as Gliadin is the name of the Gluten in wheat and that there is 69% total protein in wheat.  They are mutually exclusive...

Dave

If you are right then they are not mutually exclusive since total protein includes gluten. ;)  But raw wheat is something like 8-15% protein, not 69%.  Good malting barley is around 11-12% protein.

Also, they named the table "Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)"  Note the "percentage of gluten" part of that.  They are saying that 69% of the total protein is gluten.  They are also saying that the type of gluten is gliadin.  Here is the problem - gliadin is a component of wheat gluten, but it is not 69% of the gluten or of the total protein.

Gluten is made up of several types of protein that go by different names.  Gliadin (and the others listed, including zein from corn) are the prolamin component of gluten from that grain.  Glutenin is in the glutelin family of proteins, and is a major component of the total protein and of gluten.

If you look at the table below you'll see that, under the conditions they tested, gliadin accounted for ~23% of protein content, and glutenin ~40%.
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/64/12/3627/T2.expansion.html

So I'm still going with that table being inaccurate.  And misleading.  And it has a typo.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I'll go with you on that one Tom....
Dave Zach

Offline davidgzach

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 01:50:56 PM »
Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.
Dave Zach

Offline alestateyall

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 02:16:35 PM »

Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.

I was just kidding around. But I do seriously have about 4oz of catapults in the brew closet that I has been sitting there for months. I plan to throw it in something soon.
Tommy M.
Huntsville, AL

Offline Pinski

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Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2013, 02:19:17 PM »

Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.

I was just kidding around. But I do seriously have about 4oz of catapults in the brew closet that I has been sitting there for months. I plan to throw it in something soon.
Throw something with it?  ::)
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