Author Topic: Single Infusion Mash Time  (Read 2047 times)

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2014, 07:43:32 PM »
With the majority of today's malts being highly modified, I typically mash for 60 minutes and know it's done, or 90 minutes if I want a more fermentable wort or am mashing at low temp.  If I add a significant amount of wheat malt, oat malt, flaked oats, flaked wheat flaked barley, and/or flaked rye I normally go 90 minutes.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:45:20 PM by brewsumore »

Offline kramerog

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2014, 07:50:31 AM »
Seems pH is more important than I originally thought regarding conversion. I normally mash for 60 minutes but for some reason the last couple of batches have come up short on gravity points into the kettle.

Not sure if I'm not converting fully or if it is a sparge issue - I haven't changed my sparge process but I have been playing with water chemistry and my last couple of batches came in at pH 5.2 in the mash, so conversion is my prime suspect. Maybe I'm not mashing long enough?

I read something to the effect longer mashes can increase fermentability, so I'm trying 90 minutes on my next brew this weekend - I figure it can't hurt as long as I'm keeping the pH in check.
If you can keep a good eye on your volumes you can take a sample of the wort directly from the mash tun and determine your diversion efficiency. Sean terril or kaiser (can't remember which right now) built a good tool for calculating this.

Brau Kaiser has a table and a spreadsheet.  The table is good enough for my purposes.

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Offline el_capitan

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2014, 01:59:49 PM »
A while ago I checked out "The Art of Stone Brewing" from our public library.  It's published by Stone and details the company history, including some recipes in the back.  I was planning to do their Levitation Ale. 

The recipes are written in a strange style, definitely not the regular homebrew recipe format.  The oddest part was their recommended 10 MINUTE MASH. 

I listened to the CYBI podcast on Levitation and that was not mentioned.  So why would Stone be using a 10-minute mash?  Is there something in the commercial-scale equipment that would account for this?  I was thinking that maybe it takes a really long time to drain their big mash tuns, which technically extends the mashing period for longer. 

Their smoked porter recipe called for a 10-minute mash too, although I went ahead and did my typical 60 min mash when I brewed it.  Strange.  Any ideas?
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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »
A while ago I checked out "The Art of Stone Brewing" from our public library.  It's published by Stone and details the company history, including some recipes in the back.  I was planning to do their Levitation Ale. 

The recipes are written in a strange style, definitely not the regular homebrew recipe format.  The oddest part was their recommended 10 MINUTE MASH. 

I listened to the CYBI podcast on Levitation and that was not mentioned.  So why would Stone be using a 10-minute mash?  Is there something in the commercial-scale equipment that would account for this?  I was thinking that maybe it takes a really long time to drain their big mash tuns, which technically extends the mashing period for longer. 

Their smoked porter recipe called for a 10-minute mash too, although I went ahead and did my typical 60 min mash when I brewed it.  Strange.  Any ideas?

They mean they only do a 10 min. rest.  But between the hours it takes for mash in and sparging, they're at mash temperatures for the same amount of time as the rest of us.
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Offline el_capitan

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2014, 02:37:17 PM »
Thanks Denny, that's what I figured.  They also recommended a 72 degree fermentation temp, using WLP007.  I assumed that's what they get away with, fermenting under pressure. 

It's the weird things like that, that gave me the feeling that Stone has kind of lost their connection with homebrewing.  It's cool that they want to reach out to homebrewers by including some recipes.  They just seemed to lack an understanding of how homebrewing actually works, when it came to communicating the recipes for homebrewers. 
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 10:04:28 AM »
Is the book necessarily written for homebrewers as an audience? It would make a lot of sense to write recipes for how they operate on a commercial level if the audience is aspiring commercial brewers.
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Offline el_capitan

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 08:28:48 PM »
I guess I had the title wrong - it's "The Craft of Stone Brewing".  Anyway, I'd say it could be intended for either audience, now that you mention it.  Although all of the beer recipes are 5-gallons.  I think they also include percentages so you can easily scale things up or down. 

Overall it was an interesting book, and the Stone location sure sounds amazing.  It would be cool to tour.  I think there's just an overriding arrogance that kind of threw me off.  Maybe that's just the Stone style. 
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Offline phunhog

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2014, 09:10:32 PM »
I have always been interested in this subject.  I was keeping track of my OG with a refractometer throughout a 60 minute mash at 150-154.  My basic conclusion was that I was not seeing any increase in OG past 40-45 minutes.  Now I have a question...Is there a correlation between OG and fermentability....or anything else?  In other words if I mash for 45 minutes at 152 and have reached an OG of 1.060 is there any benefit of mashing another 15 minutes at 152 if the OG is still 1.060?   Are there other reactions taking place(other than starch conversion) that we need to be worried about?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 09:25:12 PM »
The hydrometer or refractometer only knows sugar. Well, one knows gravity the other knows how much bent the light is. Regardless,  they don't know sugar shapes or what yeast likes. I suggest a listen to a brew strong mash episode. My simple minded understanding is that it's system related. YOU may only need 40 min, or 30, or whatever. I know what I need. Its like saying size 12 boots are the best.

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2014, 07:59:29 AM »
It's always been my understanding that a longer mash can produce a more fermentable wort.  Not necessarily better efficiency but better fermentability.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2014, 08:23:13 AM »
I have always been interested in this subject.  I was keeping track of my OG with a refractometer throughout a 60 minute mash at 150-154.  My basic conclusion was that I was not seeing any increase in OG past 40-45 minutes.  Now I have a question...Is there a correlation between OG and fermentability....or anything else?  In other words if I mash for 45 minutes at 152 and have reached an OG of 1.060 is there any benefit of mashing another 15 minutes at 152 if the OG is still 1.060?   Are there other reactions taking place(other than starch conversion) that we need to be worried about?

I have run a lot of experiments as well, including with respect to fermentability.  It's a balancing act.  My experiments proved to me that after 40 minutes, your wort is plenty fermentable, and an additional 20 minutes of mash time will only get you an extra 1-2% fermentability, e.g., the difference might be 78% attenuation instead of 76% or something like that.  Big friggin whoop, in my humble opinion.  And if you stretch out the mash time to 90 minutes, maybe you'll get another 2-3% fermentability.  So it depends on what matters more to you personally -- do you want to save time on brew day and just get it all over with, or are you relaxed enough to let the mash go for 90 minutes to gain a few more percent fermentability?  The choice is entirely yours.  Personally, I'll save the time and quit mashing at the 40-minute mark.  Mash shorter than that, and you are playing roulette with fermentability, in my experience -- might turn out fine, but might be a very thick and chewy beer, about a 50/50 chance.
Dave

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2014, 09:16:24 AM »
I have always been interested in this subject.  I was keeping track of my OG with a refractometer throughout a 60 minute mash at 150-154.  My basic conclusion was that I was not seeing any increase in OG past 40-45 minutes.  Now I have a question...Is there a correlation between OG and fermentability....or anything else?  In other words if I mash for 45 minutes at 152 and have reached an OG of 1.060 is there any benefit of mashing another 15 minutes at 152 if the OG is still 1.060?   Are there other reactions taking place(other than starch conversion) that we need to be worried about?

I have run a lot of experiments as well, including with respect to fermentability.  It's a balancing act.  My experiments proved to me that after 40 minutes, your wort is plenty fermentable, and an additional 20 minutes of mash time will only get you an extra 1-2% fermentability, e.g., the difference might be 78% attenuation instead of 76% or something like that.  Big friggin whoop, in my humble opinion.  And if you stretch out the mash time to 90 minutes, maybe you'll get another 2-3% fermentability.  So it depends on what matters more to you personally -- do you want to save time on brew day and just get it all over with, or are you relaxed enough to let the mash go for 90 minutes to gain a few more percent fermentability?  The choice is entirely yours.  Personally, I'll save the time and quit mashing at the 40-minute mark.  Mash shorter than that, and you are playing roulette with fermentability, in my experience -- might turn out fine, but might be a very thick and chewy beer, about a 50/50 chance.

Is this true for all mash temps?  The same at 148 as 158?
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2014, 11:12:23 AM »
Is this true for all mash temps?  The same at 148 as 158?

I have not run enough experiments above 153 F to know for sure.  40 minutes is certainly sufficient from 147 to 152 F.  Above that temperature, my preliminary results are that MORE time might be needed to assure decent attenuation, which I would define as greater than about 70%.  Perhaps 45 to 50 minutes is needed at higher temperatures, due to denaturing of much of the beta amylase enzymes.  Just a hypothesis at the higher temps.  But I have been very pleased with a 40 minute mash time from 147 to 152 F.  Or perhaps 45 minutes if you want to play it super safe.  Experiment and find out for yourselves!!
Dave

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2014, 06:44:09 AM »
Is this true for all mash temps?  The same at 148 as 158?

I have not run enough experiments above 153 F to know for sure.  40 minutes is certainly sufficient from 147 to 152 F.  Above that temperature, my preliminary results are that MORE time might be needed to assure decent attenuation, which I would define as greater than about 70%.  Perhaps 45 to 50 minutes is needed at higher temperatures, due to denaturing of much of the beta amylase enzymes.  Just a hypothesis at the higher temps.  But I have been very pleased with a 40 minute mash time from 147 to 152 F.  Or perhaps 45 minutes if you want to play it super safe.  Experiment and find out for yourselves!!

Very interesting to hear this.  And would grist makeup change any of this or would it likely hold true for most modern malts?  Sounds like some experiments are in order!
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Single Infusion Mash Time
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2014, 07:33:20 AM »
I believe it works for all base malts except Munich, since Munich is very low on enzymes.  Anything else works in my experience.
Dave

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