Author Topic: Classic American Pilsner  (Read 2532 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2014, 10:54:51 AM »
Full Sail's Session is a pretty good example, IMHO.

http://www.fullsailbrewing.com/session-lager.cfm

It is a good beer, but I don't think it's hoppy enough for a true CAP.

This is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to the guideline update. "Medium to high hop aroma/flavor/bitterness" leaves a lot to be interpreted if you don't have a classic example. I brew a CAP with 6 oz of Saaz - usual comments are 'not hoppy enough', whatever that means. I might just enter a Prima Pils type German Pils as a CAP and see if that's hoppy enough! HA!

Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.
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Offline chumley

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2014, 12:41:56 PM »
I hear what you all are saying,  but I am skeptical about style guidelines applied to a historic style that no one has ever tasted.

I have a hard time believing that our grandparents and great grandparents went from being super hothead to swill drinkers during the 15 year course of Prohibition.

I recall reading an article once on historic IPAd, that instead of being hop bombs, they were probably of moderate bitterness,  as the hops were not so bitter. I would suspect that to be true of CAPs.

Offline denny

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2014, 01:00:10 PM »
I hear what you all are saying,  but I am skeptical about style guidelines applied to a historic style that no one has ever tasted.

I have a hard time believing that our grandparents and great grandparents went from being super hothead to swill drinkers during the 15 year course of Prohibition.

I recall reading an article once on historic IPAd, that instead of being hop bombs, they were probably of moderate bitterness,  as the hops were not so bitter. I would suspect that to be true of CAPs.

May very well be, Chumley.  What I recall of Jeff R's version is an assertive but not "slap you in the face" bitterness.
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Offline Jimmy K

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2014, 01:11:47 PM »
I don't think they drank anything approaching the hop levels of todays beers. Nobody was making hops bombs because hops were expensive (they still are).  But the lessening of flavor started long before prohibition too. Refrigeration probably freed brewers to use less hops because they depended on preservative qualities a little less.  CAP probably had bitterness similar to a german pilsner because it was german immigrant brewers who came here and tried to brew the beers they knew with local ingredients.

IPA is nothing like it was either. It doesn't sit in casks in the bottom of a ship for six months before being drunk.
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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2014, 01:17:00 PM »
I hear what you all are saying,  but I am skeptical about style guidelines applied to a historic style that no one has ever tasted.

I have a hard time believing that our grandparents and great grandparents went from being super hothead to swill drinkers during the 15 year course of Prohibition.

I recall reading an article once on historic IPAd, that instead of being hop bombs, they were probably of moderate bitterness,  as the hops were not so bitter. I would suspect that to be true of CAPs.
Jeff's CAP instantly reminded me of the beers my dad would drink when I was a kid and sneaked sips a long time ago.

I think something along the line of an assertive German Pils is the right way to look at it, but with the American ingredients.
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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2014, 01:19:28 PM »
I don't think they drank anything approaching the hop levels of todays beers. Nobody was making hops bombs because hops were expensive (they still are).  But the lessening of flavor started long before prohibition too. Refrigeration probably freed brewers to use less hops because they depended on preservative qualities a little less.  CAP probably had bitterness similar to a german pilsner because it was german immigrant brewers who came here and tried to brew the beers they knew with local ingredients.

IPA is nothing like it was either. It doesn't sit in casks in the bottom of a ship for six months before being drunk.

+1.  The German Pils comparison makes good sense.
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Offline punatic

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2014, 01:32:45 PM »
I would suspect that the bitterness was adjusted to compliment the corn flavors.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 02:09:32 PM »
Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that'd be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty (read in Cleveland's voice) in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner's CAP recipe?
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 02:27:04 PM »
Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner's CAP recipe?

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

The formatting is funny, but there is a recipe in there. 80/20 6-row/flaked corn.

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 02:47:17 PM »
Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that'd be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty (read in Cleveland's voice) in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner's CAP recipe?
Amanda I just happen to be bringing a fresh CAP to the meeting Friday, will be interesting to see if a Cap can be "good" without some cluster harshness.

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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 03:30:57 PM »
Denny, you being the godfather of batch sparging, how would you handle Jeff's mash schedule?

30 min @ 122
15 min @ 140
40 min @ 158
10 min @ mashout

Personally I hate step mashes in a cooler. Carrying boiling water isn't my cup of tea. Single infusion at 150-151?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2014, 03:42:18 PM »
Full Sail's Session is a pretty good example, IMHO.

http://www.fullsailbrewing.com/session-lager.cfm

It is a good beer, but I don't think it's hoppy enough for a true CAP.

It's the top example of 1c, but I'll bet they'd like to be #1 in 2c also.

Nevertheless,  my question stands... having no commercial example in this style is really testing my OCD.

Since the style calls for native American hops, which there is no such thing, their native to China if memory serves, maybe this is a mythical beer and that's why a commercial version doesn't exist.

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 04:14:26 PM »
Amanda, I'd be in the same quandary if I hadn't tasted Jeff Renner's and a couple other versions influenced by him.  Maybe try Cluster and see if you get better comments.

Denny, that'd be like suggesting that you should use a bit of Fuggles in your wort.  ;D  Cluster is naaasty (read in Cleveland's voice) in my world.

Continuing on the good discussion though, anyone care to post Renner's CAP recipe?

I will have to get his current one off of the old laptop. It uses Cluster, which I think is not bad at all if it is fresh. You may perceive it different from me. Some don't like Fuggles, I detest Nelson Sauvin. We all have different tastes.

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Offline MDixon

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 05:04:15 PM »
I did well at comps with this one.
http://carboyclub.com/recipes/cap1.htm
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Offline gmwren

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Re: Classic American Pilsner
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2014, 07:27:46 PM »
I like my Pre Prohibition CAP with 40/40/20 pils/six row/flaked corn. I usually FWH Sterling and a late addition with Saaz and or Sterling. Not too much hop aroma, just a tickle. This is my go to summer beer when the IPA is just too much.