Author Topic: German Pilsner water?  (Read 767 times)

Offline quattlebaum

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German Pilsner water?
« on: January 20, 2014, 05:48:46 PM »
I am sure this has been asked a thousand times but any suggestions on a water profile for a German Pilsner? This is what i am thinking. Would love some feedback on the water and recipe.  I think my PH will be lower than stated 5.4ish.
My worry is that i have read that Sulfate clashes with noble hops?
Recipe: German Pilsner    TYPE: All Grain
Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 2.9 SRM      SRM RANGE: 2.0-5.0 SRM
IBU: 38.1 IBUs Tinseth   IBU RANGE: 25.0-45.0 IBUs
OG: 1.048 SG      OG RANGE: 1.044-1.050 SG
FG: 1.010 SG      FG RANGE: 1.008-1.013 SG
BU:GU: 0.793      Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz   Est ABV: 5.0 %      
EE%: 72.00 %   Batch: 5.50 gal      Boil: 8.70 gal   BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------
German Pils            
100% RO
            
Finished Profile      ppm      
Ca         54   
Mg         0   
Na         8   
SO4         60   
Cl         55   
HCO3         -3   
            
Hardness         136   (ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity         -2   (ppm as CaCO3)
RA         -41   
SO4/Cl         1.09   
            
Batch Volume      8.70   Gallons   
Total Mash      5.00   Gallons   
Mash Dilution      5.00   Gallons   
Total Sparge      5.07   Gallons   
Sparge Dilution      5.07   Gallons   
            
Mineral Additions      Mash (g)   Sparge (g)   
Gypsum           .      2.0   2.0   
Epsom Salt      0.0   0.0   
Canning Salt      0.0   0.0   
Baking Soda      0.0      
Calcium Chloride      2.0   2.0   
Chalk          .      0.0      
Pickling Lime      0.0      
Mag Chloride      0.0   0.0   
            
Acid Additions      Mash    Sparge   
(ml)         0.50   0.22
Lactic            
88.00            
%            

Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 13.5 oz   Total Hops: 2.60 oz oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.50 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
9 lbs 8.0 oz          Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)            Grain         1        96.5 %       
5.5 oz                Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM)           Grain         2        3.5 %         


Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 4.99 gal of water at 159.3 F        150.0 F       60 min       

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 65.0 F/68.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Fly sparge with 5.08 gal water at 168.0 F

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.041 SG   Est OG: 1.048 SG
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1.55 oz               Perle [7.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min           Hop           3        30.0 IBUs     
0.55 oz               Hallertauer [4.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min     Hop           4        5.4 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Tettnang [3.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min        Hop           5        2.6 IBUs     



Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 05:55:05 PM »
It has been said that SO4 clashes with noble hops. I like German Pils, and plenty of places in Germany do not have Pilsen water. If you like an assertive lingering dry finish, then some SO4 does the trick.

I like Kai's Pilsner water profile for German Pils.
Ca=59 ppm
SO4=89 ppm
Cl=63 ppm

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Various_water_recipes

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 07:34:31 PM »
For a lager yeast, I would aim for a much lower calcium content along with lower chloride and sulfate. Just recognize that some lager yeast perform better when the calcium content is low.
Martin B
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 07:57:00 PM »
Martin, can you point me to any references to lager yeast and low Ca?

Having lived and traveled around Germany, the water can be variable. Some is pretty hard. Where I lived it had a mineral taste, but that was more wine country.
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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 06:44:43 AM »
Martin, can you point me to any references to lager yeast and low Ca?

Having lived and traveled around Germany, the water can be variable. Some is pretty hard. Where I lived it had a mineral taste, but that was more wine country.

The reference for low calcium in Southern Bavaria will be published in the Mar/Apr 2014 issue of Zymurgy. The water of Southern Bavaria is quite similar...hard and alkaline. That makes it easily softened by pre-boiling or lime softening. Either of those options have been available for over a hundred years. So yeasts from that region are likely acclimatized to low calcium conditions.

However, places like Jever and Dortmund have water with more permanent hardness. I expect that yeasts used in those places do not have to have low calcium content to perform well. An extensive article on this calcium/yeast issue should be published in Zymurgy, probably in May/June. 
Martin B
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 07:29:55 AM »
Martin, can you point me to any references to lager yeast and low Ca?

Having lived and traveled around Germany, the water can be variable. Some is pretty hard. Where I lived it had a mineral taste, but that was more wine country.

The reference for low calcium in Southern Bavaria will be published in the Mar/Apr 2014 issue of Zymurgy. The water of Southern Bavaria is quite similar...hard and alkaline. That makes it easily softened by pre-boiling or lime softening. Either of those options have been available for over a hundred years. So yeasts from that region are likely acclimatized to low calcium conditions.

However, places like Jever and Dortmund have water with more permanent hardness. I expect that yeasts used in those places do not have to have low calcium content to perform well. An extensive article on this calcium/yeast issue should be published in Zymurgy, probably in May/June.
Looking forward to it.

Jeff Rankert
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 08:51:27 AM »
Interesting to think a yeast strain might adapt to water quality.  I wonder if this persists once someone at White Labs takes it, cultures it for many generations over several years with their own water profile, and then sells it.  Seeing as this is a fairly new topic of discussion, I don't suppose the yeast companies have been adjusting water to match the profile from the location where the yeast was originally procured?
Lennie
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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 09:30:09 AM »
I have a German pils on tap that I made using the Jever (boiled) profile from Bru'nwater.  I'm loving it!   Not only that, but it was on tap 4 weeks to the day after I brewed it.  That included only a week of lagering.  At 4 weeks, it was crystal clear and delicious.
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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 10:30:23 AM »
What yeast Denny?  That part about yeast evolving to conform to the local water is just a hypothesis on my part. I need data on which yeast worked well at what calcium content. I do know that the boh pils yeast does not like calcium at 40 ppm.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 10:53:58 AM »
I have a German pils on tap that I made using the Jever (boiled) profile from Bru'nwater.  I'm loving it!   Not only that, but it was on tap 4 weeks to the day after I brewed it.  That included only a week of lagering.  At 4 weeks, it was crystal clear and delicious.

I have some WLP830 that I should try making a German Pils using this profile. Sounds like a good one.
Ron Price

Offline denny

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 10:59:25 AM »
What yeast Denny?  That part about yeast evolving to conform to the local water is just a hypothesis on my part. I need data on which yeast worked well at what calcium content. I do know that the boh pils yeast does not like calcium at 40 ppm.

WY2278, Martin.  I love that stuff for German pils.  Here's what I ended up with after diluting my tap water 30% with distilled...

Jever (boiled)         Calcium (ppm)   Magnesium (ppm)   Sodium (ppm)   Sulfate (ppm)   Chloride (ppm)   Bicarbonate (ppm)
Existing Water Profile         34   7   11   57   3   90
Finished Water Profile         55   5   8   77   30   -85
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 11:00:00 AM »
I have a German pils on tap that I made using the Jever (boiled) profile from Bru'nwater.  I'm loving it!   Not only that, but it was on tap 4 weeks to the day after I brewed it.  That included only a week of lagering.  At 4 weeks, it was crystal clear and delicious.

I have some WLP830 that I should try making a German Pils using this profile. Sounds like a good one.

I love the bitterness of Jever and I got it!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline redzim

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 11:55:34 AM »
I have a German pils on tap that I made using the Jever (boiled) profile from Bru'nwater.  I'm loving it!   Not only that, but it was on tap 4 weeks to the day after I brewed it.  That included only a week of lagering.  At 4 weeks, it was crystal clear and delicious.

Where is the Jever profile? I have Brun Water 1.16b and don't see it....

Offline denny

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 01:58:15 PM »
I have a German pils on tap that I made using the Jever (boiled) profile from Bru'nwater.  I'm loving it!   Not only that, but it was on tap 4 weeks to the day after I brewed it.  That included only a week of lagering.  At 4 weeks, it was crystal clear and delicious.

Where is the Jever profile? I have Brun Water 1.16b and don't see it....

I'm not sure which version I have, but it's the supporter version, not the free one.  The Jever (boiled) profile is about the last one in the list.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: German Pilsner water?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 02:00:10 PM »
Martin, don't you get about 35 ppm Ca from the mash? Additions will get that higher, no? Some is Ca is consumed in the mash, but how much? Where would AJ be at by adding 20 ppm Ca?

Some makes a little sense to me. British Ale strains would benefit from Ca to flocculate quickly, as that beer is at cellar temps and on cask needs to drop bright quickly. Lager yeasts have a long time at cold temps, so they will settle out with proteins via Stokes law, so the Ca is not as essential.

If there are detrimental factors from higher Ca and lager yeasts, hope that is covered in the article.

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