Author Topic: Marzen  (Read 564 times)

Offline morticaixavier

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Marzen
« on: January 22, 2014, 02:43:26 PM »
Let's discuss this style.

I'm gonna brew one weekend after next. The yeast is a foregone conclusion at least for this first one because I just got a big pitch from the local brewery of their proprietary lager strain.

In looking around it seems like the commonalities in recipes here on the wiki and elsewhere is a solid portion of Vienna or munich malt, cut with some pilsner. I see a fair amount of dextrin, or aromatic, or similar high color or crystal malts.

I tend to veer sharply away from crystal malts unless someone can convince me I need them. I'm probably not going to do a decoction either but I might be talked into it.

What about hops? it seems like it's a pretty malt forward style and the hops are really just playing backup so does it matter a lot beyond using something noble?

Let's hear you thoughts.

**EDITED TO ADD**
also, I use RO water and build it from there. I'm guessing Martins 'malty brown' or 'malty amber' profile is going to be the way to go but again, I'm open to discussion.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 02:45:20 PM by morticaixavier »
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Re: Marzen
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 02:51:51 PM »
I've never brewed one, but my gut reaction to crystal in this is run away screaming.
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 02:58:41 PM »
Ask the aforementioned local brewery to share the grist for their Fest Marzen. Haven't had it in two years, but I liked it back then.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 02:59:55 PM »
I don't mind some Cara-Munich in ones I make, not too much. You want this to be malty, but to finish neutral to slightly dry. One key to that is a good attenuation, so I would recommend a step mash. If not a step mash 153F would be my choice.

As for water, consult the water presentation Martin did in Philly, and use the modified Munich water as a target, or the Amber malty.

Did they give you any hints on the yeast? Has it been in their brewery long enough to call their own strain?
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Offline blatz

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 03:15:04 PM »
one of my favorite styles and an annual brew, haven't changed it in 3 years now so I guess i like it as is (so do the judges  ;) )

Will check if you care when i get home, but off the top of my head its:

4% caramunich I
18% Munich I
18% Munich II
35% Vienna
25% Pils

833 yeast

18-20 ibus FWH Mittlefruh (calculated as 90 min addition + 10% - not that "treat it as a 20 min addition mumbo-jumbo).

.5 oz  (per 5 gal) Mittlefruh or Tettnang at 10 min

As jeff mentioned, step mash helps - i started doing a hockhurz step and like it - basically strike in to hit 146-148 rest for 5 then I begin ramping up to 156-158 which takes 15 min, then rest at 156-158 for 40 min before ramping up to mashout.

I enjoy it this way, but many, many ways to approach it. 
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 03:31:25 PM »
I don't mind some Cara-Munich in ones I make, not too much. You want this to be malty, but to finish neutral to slightly dry. One key to that is a good attenuation, so I would recommend a step mash. If not a step mash 153F would be my choice.

As for water, consult the water presentation Martin did in Philly, and use the modified Munich water as a target, or the Amber malty.

Did they give you any hints on the yeast? Has it been in their brewery long enough to call their own strain?

I don't know how long it's been with the brewery but they are calling it their own. it's not a strain generally available through White labs for sure. As Steve points out they do a decent fest marzen and in fact that's the one that my wife likes so much.

I don't really want to just use the grist they use cause, well, cause I like doing things for myself.

What I'm hearing is to maximize malty character but not at the expense of a dry/semi-fry finish. If I want I can probably put 1-5% medium crystal/cara without danger of overdoing the maltiness.

Sounds like on the hop front, a bittering charge and maybe a late boil charge of something noble.

I'll work the numbers and see what I have in the freezer hop wise already and post back with an initial run at it.
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Offline Jeff M

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 06:30:36 PM »
I don't mind some Cara-Munich in ones I make, not too much. You want this to be malty, but to finish neutral to slightly dry. One key to that is a good attenuation, so I would recommend a step mash. If not a step mash 153F would be my choice.

As for water, consult the water presentation Martin did in Philly, and use the modified Munich water as a target, or the Amber malty.

Did they give you any hints on the yeast? Has it been in their brewery long enough to call their own strain?

I don't know how long it's been with the brewery but they are calling it their own. it's not a strain generally available through White labs for sure. As Steve points out they do a decent fest marzen and in fact that's the one that my wife likes so much.

I don't really want to just use the grist they use cause, well, cause I like doing things for myself.

What I'm hearing is to maximize malty character but not at the expense of a dry/semi-fry finish. If I want I can probably put 1-5% medium crystal/cara without danger of overdoing the maltiness.

Sounds like on the hop front, a bittering charge and maybe a late boil charge of something noble.

I'll work the numbers and see what I have in the freezer hop wise already and post back with an initial run at it.

I would think it the Hop Bill doesnt even need to be noble, just something herbal and spicy, not in your face citrus. 
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 07:36:03 PM »
I don't mind some Cara-Munich in ones I make, not too much. You want this to be malty, but to finish neutral to slightly dry. One key to that is a good attenuation, so I would recommend a step mash. If not a step mash 153F would be my choice.

As for water, consult the water presentation Martin did in Philly, and use the modified Munich water as a target, or the Amber malty.

Did they give you any hints on the yeast? Has it been in their brewery long enough to call their own strain?

I don't know how long it's been with the brewery but they are calling it their own. it's not a strain generally available through White labs for sure. As Steve points out they do a decent fest marzen and in fact that's the one that my wife likes so much.

I don't really want to just use the grist they use cause, well, cause I like doing things for myself.

What I'm hearing is to maximize malty character but not at the expense of a dry/semi-fry finish. If I want I can probably put 1-5% medium crystal/cara without danger of overdoing the maltiness.

Sounds like on the hop front, a bittering charge and maybe a late boil charge of something noble.

I'll work the numbers and see what I have in the freezer hop wise already and post back with an initial run at it.

So I got an email from the brewer and was informed it is NOT a proprietary yeast strain at all, they experimented with one and it did not meet the needs. I asked about what the strain was and will hopefully hear back soon!
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2014, 08:55:32 PM »
Jamil's recipe in Brewing Classic Styles is pretty simple and damn tasty. I think it is 5:4:3:1 of Pils/Munich/Vienna/Caramunich-60L. Wyeast 2633 (Octoberfest Lager Blend) is now available year round, and works great in this style. I've got one on the schedule for a double-lager brewday next week, but I'm going to kick it up with a little bit of Aromatic to turn the volume up on the Munich a bit.
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 07:41:14 AM »
I'll put a vote in for the NHC 2013 Gold Medal 3B recipe.
Just an amazing beer.  We struggled with the lack of toastiness and complexity, but in the end decided it fit perfectly in the "Domestic German versions tend to be golden, like a strong Pils-dominated Helles" part of the guidelines and in the medal round it kicked butt. 
anyway if you're interested the recipe is obviously in Zymurgy.
5 lbs Weyermann floor malted bo pils
4 lbs Weyermann light munich
3 lbs Weyermann Vienna
he did do a decoction.

I need to make this beer too. 

Offline brewcrew7

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 01:23:20 PM »
I've used 80:20 Vienna to Dark Munich and a Hochkurz style decoction, boiling for 30-40 minutes, for the past 2 years at my Oktoberfest party. Brewed in March and lagered until late September. I think I'll try a single-infusion this year and a 90:10 mix with a shorter maturation period. Or, I'll keep the decoction for tradition sake and go 100% Vienna. I think with the dark munich and possibly the decoction I felt the beer was a bit too malty and I know the lagering helped the beer round out some. I'm trying to keep my O'fest toasty and leave the deeper maltiness for any bocks or dunkels I may make. I've only used a bittering addition with Magnum and left out any flavoring and aroma additions.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2014, 04:59:26 PM »
Alright, brew day is coming up.

Looking through my hops collection I have Magnum, Sterling, and Liberty.

According to BCJP it shouldn't really matter what I use because there is little to no hop flavor and hop aroma is not even mentioned. so I lean towards Magnum and I'll save the Sterling and Liberty for some hoppier lagers.

But I'm open to being talked out of it.
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Re: Marzen
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2014, 07:09:45 PM »
Alright, brew day is coming up.

Looking through my hops collection I have Magnum, Sterling, and Liberty.

According to BCJP it shouldn't really matter what I use because there is little to no hop flavor and hop aroma is not even mentioned. so I lean towards Magnum and I'll save the Sterling and Liberty for some hoppier lagers.

But I'm open to being talked out of it.

A little late noble hop character isn't necessarily a bad thing (Sam Adams Ofest, for example). I'd go with the Sterling out of the ones you have listed if you do. Any of those would be fine for bittering. Personally, I'm using 3/4 oz of Sterling as FWH and 1/4 ounce at flameout (3 gallon batch) for mine on Wednesday.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2014, 07:12:19 PM »
Alright, brew day is coming up.

Looking through my hops collection I have Magnum, Sterling, and Liberty.

According to BCJP it shouldn't really matter what I use because there is little to no hop flavor and hop aroma is not even mentioned. so I lean towards Magnum and I'll save the Sterling and Liberty for some hoppier lagers.

But I'm open to being talked out of it.

A little late noble hop character isn't necessarily a bad thing (Sam Adams Ofest, for example). I'd go with the Sterling out of the ones you have listed if you do. Any of those would be fine for bittering. Personally, I'm using 3/4 oz of Sterling as FWH and 1/4 ounce at flameout (3 gallon batch) for mine on Wednesday.

No argument on using Sterling. For a more Hallertau Mittelfrueh character use the Liberty. So many choices, so few beers that we brew!
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Offline Pinski

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Re: Marzen
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2014, 12:38:41 AM »
Alright, brew day is coming up.

Looking through my hops collection I have Magnum, Sterling, and Liberty.

According to BCJP it shouldn't really matter what I use because there is little to no hop flavor and hop aroma is not even mentioned. so I lean towards Magnum and I'll save the Sterling and Liberty for some hoppier lagers.

But I'm open to being talked out of it.

A little late noble hop character isn't necessarily a bad thing (Sam Adams Ofest, for example). I'd go with the Sterling out of the ones you have listed if you do. Any of those would be fine for bittering. Personally, I'm using 3/4 oz of Sterling as FWH and 1/4 ounce at flameout (3 gallon batch) for mine on Wednesday.

No argument on using Sterling. For a more Hallertau Mittelfrueh character use the Liberty. So many choices, so few beers that we brew!

I really like this note in a Marzen.
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