Author Topic: DMS causes  (Read 2403 times)

Offline beersk

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2014, 06:48:43 AM »
Hmm, could be the wheat on yours. Mine definitely picked up some kind of contamination, I think that was the cause for the weird foam on mine. I'm pretty sure at this point that it wasn't pitch rate or pitching temperature. I think the beer is just plain contaminated. Oh well, it's in the past now. Thanks, everyone, for your input. I appreciate it.

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Jesse
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Offline Jimmy K

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2014, 07:10:54 AM »
I plugged your grist, RO water, and salt additions (I guessed at amounts, but went with mimimal calcium - 50ppm) into Brewers Friend and got a mash pH of 5.3 - I'm guessing that's the cause of the tartness. Calcium additions with no alkalinity will lower mash pH and subsequently wort and beer pH.
 
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2014, 07:20:56 AM »
I plugged your grist, RO water, and salt additions (I guessed at amounts, but went with mimimal calcium - 50ppm) into Brewers Friend and got a mash pH of 5.3 - I'm guessing that's the cause of the tartness. Calcium additions with no alkalinity will lower mash pH and subsequently wort and beer pH.
 
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

+1.  I actually shoot for a pH of ~ 5.3 (or a bit under) for a saison, to get that bit of tartness.
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Offline beersk

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2014, 07:55:47 AM »
You guys think a pH of 5.3 would really cause that much tartness? I thought I read somewhere that most German breweries target a pH of 5.2 for lighter styles.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2014, 08:16:54 AM »
You guys think a pH of 5.3 would really cause that much tartness? I thought I read somewhere that most German breweries target a pH of 5.2 for lighter styles.

A little bit? Possibly. A significant amount? Most likely not. There are a lot of factors that come into play between mash pH and final beer pH (yeast being a major one). If a yeast strain doesn't typically produce a tart beer, I don't know if one or two points difference in the mash is going to make a huge difference in the finished beer.

Having said that, I still mash my Saisons at 5.3 and my Porters between 5.5 and 5.6 because it does make a difference in the finished beer. But that may end up being more of a factor of residual alkalinity than mash pH, since you have to consider any remaining buffering capacity left in the wort to determine how much downstream factors (boil, hops, fermentation, etc.) would have an effect on the finished beer's pH. I'll leave that up to the real chemists, though :)
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2014, 08:24:29 AM »
You guys think a pH of 5.3 would really cause that much tartness? I thought I read somewhere that most German breweries target a pH of 5.2 for lighter styles.

Not a lot, no. I targeted a pH of 5.25 on my last saison and got a slight tartness, which I like for the style. Pretty subtle, but noticeable to me.
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Offline beersk

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2014, 09:54:07 AM »
Huh, well, I usually target a pH of 5.3 for every beer. Maybe I should change that. I was thinking about residual alkalinity the other day. If I use phosphoric to adjust my tap water to get the proper mash pH, the alkalinity and residual alkalinity goes waaaaaaay down. That's a problem, right? I'd only be adding a milliliter or less to the mash water.
Say, for an amber lager where I want to get the mash pH down to 5.4. With my tap water I need to add maybe .8 to 1mL of 85% phosphoric to get the pH down. But the RA drops to like -75, which is really low and off the charts in Bru'n water. This is why I usually use a couple ounces of acid malt instead, although that probably does the same thing to the RA.

Thoughts?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2014, 09:58:03 AM »
Huh, well, I usually target a pH of 5.3 for every beer. Maybe I should change that. I was thinking about residual alkalinity the other day. If I use phosphoric to adjust my tap water to get the proper mash pH, the alkalinity and residual alkalinity goes waaaaaaay down. That's a problem, right? I'd only be adding a milliliter or less to the mash water.
Say, for an amber lager where I want to get the mash pH down to 5.4. With my tap water I need to add maybe .8 to 1mL of 85% phosphoric to get the pH down. But the RA drops to like -75, which is really low and off the charts in Bru'n water. This is why I usually use a couple ounces of acid malt instead, although that probably does the same thing to the RA.

Thoughts?

I generally aim for 5.3-5.4 and have not noticed any out of place tartness. (slightly higher for hoppy beers per martins advice on lower pH muting hop expression).

On the acid malt v. liquid acids front. I just don't get it. I mean if it's your process than fine but you don't know how much acid you're actually adding because it varies from maltster to maltster and likely batch to batch. liquid Lactic acid is standardized at 88% and that's that. if I add 5 ml of 88% lactic that's how much I'm adding. if I add 2% acid malt to my grist I don't know exactly how much I'm adding.

For me that matters because I don't have a pH meter so I'm going with RO water and dead reckoning.

Offline denny

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2014, 09:59:59 AM »
I generally aim for 5.3-5.4 and have not noticed any out of place tartness. (slightly higher for hoppy beers per martins advice on lower pH muting hop expression).

On the acid malt v. liquid acids front. I just don't get it. I mean if it's your process than fine but you don't know how much acid you're actually adding because it varies from maltster to maltster and likely batch to batch. liquid Lactic acid is standardized at 88% and that's that. if I add 5 ml of 88% lactic that's how much I'm adding. if I add 2% acid malt to my grist I don't know exactly how much I'm adding.

For me that matters because I don't have a pH meter so I'm going with RO water and dead reckoning.

I agree with you on all points FWIW.
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Offline beersk

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2014, 10:23:25 AM »
Thanks, Jonathan. That makes sense. I may start using phosphoric additions now. But acid malt is better than nothing, I suppose. Love this forum...
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Offline bluesman

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2014, 10:44:07 AM »
I use lactic acid for all of my light beers to reduce my mash pH to the 5.3 range, and I don't get any "strange" tartness or flavors, but there is a minimally detectable or perceived tartness of sorts. Maybe a sense of dryness is a better way of thinking about it.
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Offline alestateyall

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DMS causes
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2014, 11:46:01 AM »
Huh, well, I usually target a pH of 5.3 for every beer. Maybe I should change that. I was thinking about residual alkalinity the other day. If I use phosphoric to adjust my tap water to get the proper mash pH, the alkalinity and residual alkalinity goes waaaaaaay down. That's a problem, right? I'd only be adding a milliliter or less to the mash water.
Say, for an amber lager where I want to get the mash pH down to 5.4. With my tap water I need to add maybe .8 to 1mL of 85% phosphoric to get the pH down. But the RA drops to like -75, which is really low and off the charts in Bru'n water. This is why I usually use a couple ounces of acid malt instead, although that probably does the same thing to the RA.

Thoughts?
For me that matters because I don't have a pH meter so I'm going with RO water and dead reckoning.

Does dead reckoning mean you add the recipe to brunwater and then just add the volume of acid suggested by the tool?

I have never adjusted Ph before. I plan to try for the first time this weekend. My plan is to just add the brunwater suggested amount since I don't have a Ph meter but will have Ph strips. I don't plan to adjust more after testing with Ph strips since they aren't supposed to be accurate.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 11:54:11 AM by alestateyall »
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Offline beersk

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2014, 11:54:24 AM »
That's what I do anyway...I'm avoiding buying a pH meter if I can help it. Then again, I can't talk, I'm having troubles brewing a helles.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2014, 11:57:56 AM »
Huh, well, I usually target a pH of 5.3 for every beer. Maybe I should change that. I was thinking about residual alkalinity the other day. If I use phosphoric to adjust my tap water to get the proper mash pH, the alkalinity and residual alkalinity goes waaaaaaay down. That's a problem, right? I'd only be adding a milliliter or less to the mash water.
Say, for an amber lager where I want to get the mash pH down to 5.4. With my tap water I need to add maybe .8 to 1mL of 85% phosphoric to get the pH down. But the RA drops to like -75, which is really low and off the charts in Bru'n water. This is why I usually use a couple ounces of acid malt instead, although that probably does the same thing to the RA.

Thoughts?
For me that matters because I don't have a pH meter so I'm going with RO water and dead reckoning.

Does dead reckoning mean you add the recipe to brunwater and then just add the volume of acid suggested by the tool?

I have never adjusted Ph before. I plan to try for the first time this weekend. My plan is to just add the brunwater suggested amount since I don't have a Ph meter but will have Ph strips. I don't plan to adjust more after testing with Ph strips since they aren't supposed to be accurate.

Yup that's what I mean. I don't think I'd try it with tap water but with 100% RO or DI it seems to work. never having actually tested the pH I can't tell you for sure that it works but I do not have issues that would be associated with being wildly off on my mash pH or water chemistry.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: DMS causes
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2014, 12:06:21 PM »
Huh, well, I usually target a pH of 5.3 for every beer. Maybe I should change that. I was thinking about residual alkalinity the other day. If I use phosphoric to adjust my tap water to get the proper mash pH, the alkalinity and residual alkalinity goes waaaaaaay down. That's a problem, right? I'd only be adding a milliliter or less to the mash water.
Say, for an amber lager where I want to get the mash pH down to 5.4. With my tap water I need to add maybe .8 to 1mL of 85% phosphoric to get the pH down. But the RA drops to like -75, which is really low and off the charts in Bru'n water. This is why I usually use a couple ounces of acid malt instead, although that probably does the same thing to the RA.

Thoughts?
For me that matters because I don't have a pH meter so I'm going with RO water and dead reckoning.

Does dead reckoning mean you add the recipe to brunwater and then just add the volume of acid suggested by the tool?

I have never adjusted Ph before. I plan to try for the first time this weekend. My plan is to just add the brunwater suggested amount since I don't have a Ph meter but will have Ph strips. I don't plan to adjust more after testing with Ph strips since they aren't supposed to be accurate.

Yup that's what I mean. I don't think I'd try it with tap water but with 100% RO or DI it seems to work. never having actually tested the pH I can't tell you for sure that it works but I do not have issues that would be associated with being wildly off on my mash pH or water chemistry.

That's what I do. I have strips but I'm never very confident in them alone. I use RO with Bru'nWater and have had zero problems thus far. Don't have a meter, but I weigh the salt and acid additions to the letter, and FWIW the test strips seem to bear out that I'm pretty much at the pH I want to be. But I trust my palate more than the strips - the beer is consistently good (and clear). Couldn't be more pleased.
Jon H.