[euge]

This topic is going to be a sticky?

[Slowbrew]

Yeah I just said all that crazy stuff but 

I lol'ed at that.

So, to be clear, if you give away your spent grain, are you still under these new rules?

These kinds of regulations are usually about the production of a product and not the distribution of the product.  The fact a brewery produces a product that is fed to livestock is what is being regulated, not the fact they sell it.

Paul

[anthony]

...
In a similar scenario, I can't imagine someone racking the beer onto caustic, packaging it, and shipping it to be consumed. But that is a far greater possibility than caustic getting into the grain.
...

This is the exact reason that all breweries are already regulated by the FDA.

[majorvices]

...
In a similar scenario, I can't imagine someone racking the beer onto caustic, packaging it, and shipping it to be consumed. But that is a far greater possibility than caustic getting into the grain.
...

This is the exact reason that all breweries are already regulated by the FDA.

You think we would be but we are not. We are required to register with FDA but I've not had an FDA inspection once. Been unfortunate enough to be subjected to not one but two grueling TTB inspections, been through several health department inspections, fire marshal has popped in once, but this far no dealings with FDA.

I suspect that's about to change.

[reverseapachemaster]

...
In a similar scenario, I can't imagine someone racking the beer onto caustic, packaging it, and shipping it to be consumed. But that is a far greater possibility than caustic getting into the grain.
...

This is the exact reason that all breweries are already regulated by the FDA.

You think we would be but we are not. We are required to register with FDA but I've not had an FDA inspection once. Been unfortunate enough to be subjected to not one but two grueling TTB inspections, been through several health department inspections, fire marshal has popped in once, but this far no dealings with FDA.

I suspect that's about to change.

That is in part because the TTB already allocates resources and processes to inspect and review your products before they go out for sale.

[majorvices]

...
In a similar scenario, I can't imagine someone racking the beer onto caustic, packaging it, and shipping it to be consumed. But that is a far greater possibility than caustic getting into the grain.
...

This is the exact reason that all breweries are already regulated by the FDA.

You think we would be but we are not. We are required to register with FDA but I've not had an FDA inspection once. Been unfortunate enough to be subjected to not one but two grueling TTB inspections, been through several health department inspections, fire marshal has popped in once, but this far no dealings with FDA.

I suspect that's about to change.

That is in part because the TTB already allocates resources and processes to inspect and review your products before they go out for sale.

Again, not really 100% true. The only recipes that require approval are those with special ingredients or those that could increase abv. (like fruit/spices) or bbl aging in bbls that previously held liquor. As long as you're going with malt/adjucts/hops/water/yeast - no recipe approval necessary.

Now, the do want a layout of your brewery and you are supposed to provide one every time you upgrade. But aside from that all they care about is if you are paying your taxes or not.

Oh, yeah, and they want to approve names and they go a little over board with their power there. They also want to make sure you have the SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING in correct font (with SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING" bold  and they want to make sure you have "ALE" or "BEER" somewhere on the label for some inane reason.

[anthony]

I guess we can argue semantics until we're both blue, but what I mean is, you're expected to register with the FDA for a reason... ultimately I guess I assumed we were registering so that eventually we would have another government master to make happy.

[majorvices]

I guess we can argue semantics until we're both blue, but what I mean is, you're expected to register with the FDA for a reason... ultimately I guess I assumed we were registering so that eventually we would have another government master to make happy.

Not trying to argue petty semantics. Just trying to explain what actual regulations. Apologies if it seemed that way.

I have had 0 dealings with FDA up till now. Has nothing to do with semantics. Wasn't even required to register until last year that I know of.

As I said, looks like

[majorvices]

I guess we can argue semantics until we're both blue, but what I mean is, you're expected to register with the FDA for a reason... ultimately I guess I assumed we were registering so that eventually we would have another government master to make happy.

Not trying to argue petty semantics. Just trying to explain what actual regulations. Apologies if it seemed that way.

I have had 0 dealings with FDA up till now. Has nothing to do with semantics. Wasn't even required to register until last year that I know of.

As I said, looks like that's going to change.

[Thirsty_Monk]

I guess we can argue semantics until we're both blue, but what I mean is, you're expected to register with the FDA for a reason... ultimately I guess I assumed we were registering so that eventually we would have another government master to make happy.

Not trying to argue petty semantics. Just trying to explain what actual regulations. Apologies if it seemed that way.

I have had 0 dealings with FDA up till now. Has nothing to do with semantics. Wasn't even required to register until last year that I know of.

As I said, looks like

Registering brewery with FDA is due bioterrorism act that was passed to law after 9/11.
It has Nothing to do about product safety.

In my state product safety is regulated with agg dept because I am a food processor.
I am supposed to have recall process and all kind of fun stuff.

[anthony]

I am talking about Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) requirements and specifically an event on the Reportable Food Registry (RFR).

I was replying to the scenario where a beer was racked on to caustic, packaged, and distributed. If this happened and touched more than one US state, the amount of regulatory authority the FDA has over breweries would become very obvious very quickly.

When I was at CBC this past year, one of the talks was FDA involvement/regulation of breweries, I will try and pull up the presentation and put it somewhere online.

[anthony]

Here is the PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kuctqjo6jmka3ib/preparing-for-an-fda-audit.pdf

There were also some folks there discussing what had happened to them when the FDA decided to pay them a visit, truly some comical stuff... "Why isn't your grain refrigerated!?"

[reverseapachemaster]

Again, not really 100% true. The only recipes that require approval are those with special ingredients or those that could increase abv. (like fruit/spices) or bbl aging in bbls that previously held liquor. As long as you're going with malt/adjucts/hops/water/yeast - no recipe approval necessary.

Which is why I said "in part". The TTB regs enumerate ingredients that do not require recipe approval. Everything else does, if the beer will be shipped out of state. By the time you add TTB, state ABC, state public safety regs and state/local health regs together, there is not much left for the FDA that isn't already regulated through one of those other channels regarding your manufacturing. Their resources are better used on industries that do not have as much oversight duplicating their own. 

[MDixon]

There is still time to comment on the FDA site about the rules.
http://mashbang.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/fda-rules-and-brewery-spent-grain/

[reverseapachemaster]

Judging by the comments I've seen around the intertubes about this issue, I almost feel bad for the FDA folks who are going to have to sift through comments from beer drinkers about how this is going to ruin beer for everybody.