Author Topic: "Spontaneous" fermentation  (Read 3491 times)

Online majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 11:39:07 AM »
Gross. Still, I have a hard time believing that anything harmful could live in beer. If this were the case people would be getting sick all the time and beer would not be a stable product. Not saying your wrong, just saying it goes against the evidence.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline lostralph

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2010, 04:52:22 PM »
Already fermented beer with hops is resistant to other microbes.  Wort before the yeast have a chance to build a colony is sugar water waiting for bugs to come eat it.
The High Plains Draughters - OKC

Offline tubercle

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
  • Sweet Caroline
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2010, 04:59:17 PM »
Don't forget that yeast product alcohol which is a disinfectant. When Alch gets high enough it starts killing those nasty critters but the yeast can still tolerate. That's one reason a quick start to a fermentation is desirable, to keep the weak and infirmed at bay.
Sweet Caroline where the Sun rises over the deep blue sea and sets somewhere beyond Tennessee

Offline karlh

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 11:23:36 AM »
Gross. Still, I have a hard time believing that anything harmful could live in beer. If this were the case people would be getting sick all the time and beer would not be a stable product. Not saying your wrong, just saying it goes against the evidence.
Keep in mind that theres a difference between wort and beer.  If you culture something from your backyard and put it in 5 gallons of wort, it may or may not become beer.
Karl
Mundelein, IL  USA

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 11:37:25 AM »

According to the same micro professor, they were both known human pathogens, and though they were not especially harmful to a healthy individual they could potentially be harmful to someone with a distressed immune system. 

Isn't everything in life potentially harmful to someone with a distressed immune system?  I'm supposed to give up my dream of fermenting with elephant dung to appease these people??
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Online majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2010, 03:47:43 AM »
Gross. Still, I have a hard time believing that anything harmful could live in beer. If this were the case people would be getting sick all the time and beer would not be a stable product. Not saying your wrong, just saying it goes against the evidence.
Keep in mind that theres a difference between wort and beer.  If you culture something from your backyard and put it in 5 gallons of wort, it may or may not become beer.

There's a huge difference between a yeast and a bacteria fermentation. What I have going on here is definitely a yeast fermentation. It's twin sister (another flask I left beside it) did not fair as healthy. It develoed a funky looking, mucusy looking slime and dots of mold on the surface. I haven't smelled it yet but, yeah, I wouldn't drink that. I will smell it for grins once it comes along a little further. The other wort took off like a normal fermentation and smells very clean, if not a little bretty.

Be very careful NOT to ever go to belgium if you are afraid of critters in your beer.  Like I said in earlier posts, there are some breweries who still perform some spontaneous fermentations. Even Russian River has experimented with some and blended them into the beers they serve to the public.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline karlh

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2010, 09:44:27 AM »
I have no problems with critters in beer. I just think that random critters can have potential dangers.  My reading about lambics has more than once mentioned the so-called "enteric" phase of fermentation has potential hazards associated with it, does not produce desirable flavors or characteristics, and that the commerical producers try to avoid these forms of microbes (despite the "spontaneous" nature of lambic fermenation.  It is for this reason that the commerical yeast banks do not include the "enteric" bacteria in their blends, and authors like Sparrow advise us to avoid these.  I agree that a finished lambic will not harbor living enteric bacteria, even if they were present in early fermentation, but lacking the capability to figure out whether the beer has anything harmful in it, I choose to avoid random bugs. 
Karl
Mundelein, IL  USA

Online majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6308
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 04:36:57 AM »
Well, now we are just arguing.  ;) I'll say it one more time, people have been drinking spontaneous fermented beverages for thousands of years. Beers have been picking up infections for thousands of years. Homebrewers have been picking up infections in beer every since people have brewed in home. If it were so easy for pathogens to take up residency in beer people would be dropping like flies. Microbrews all across the country served obviously infected beers all across the states in the late 80s all the way through the 90s. There are breweries and homebrewers experimenting with spontaneous fermentation all over the country, most notably Russian River. It's a lot safer that you make it out to be.

I'm going to let this thing go to completion and, if it smells good, I may make a beer out of it. If it smells and tastes bad I'm going to dump it. Really, it doesn't scare me in any way, shape or form. There are way more harmful forms of bacteria lurking in everyday places where you touch or eat than you will ever find in a fully fermented batch of any beer anywhere.
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner

Offline akr71

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 549
  • Beer Ain't Drinkin' - Mojo Nixon
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2010, 10:51:42 AM »
Keep in mind that theres a difference between wort and beer.  If you culture something from your backyard and put it in 5 gallons of wort, it may or may not become beer.

True enough, however I would suggest that there is a difference between something that is potentially lethal and something that tastes foul and gives you a case of the runs (and yes, that could be lethal to someone with a weakened ammune system argument, but then they shouldn't be drinking from flasks left out on Major's back porch for a week or two  ;D ).

I'd like to think our ancestors had enough wits to dump something that looked slimy and smelled nasty.
Andy

Amherst, NS - Canada

Offline babalu87

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
  • Grand Brewbah
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 07:01:43 AM »
I'm going to let this thing go to completion and, if it smells good, I may make a beer out of it. If it smells and tastes bad I'm going to dump it. Really, it doesn't scare me in any way, shape or form. There are way more harmful forms of bacteria lurking in everyday places where you touch or eat than you will ever find in a fully fermented batch of any beer anywhere.

Like on lettuce
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline hamiltont

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 972
  • Location: Somewhere in the Middle of Nebraska
    • View Profile
Re: "Spontaneous" fermentation
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 08:14:22 AM »
I'm going to let this thing go to completion and, if it smells good, I may make a beer out of it. If it smells and tastes bad I'm going to dump it. Really, it doesn't scare me in any way, shape or form. There are way more harmful forms of bacteria lurking in everyday places where you touch or eat than you will ever find in a fully fermented batch of any beer anywhere.

Like on lettuce
Well DARN!  There just went my diet.  Guess I'll have to revert back to cooked & fermented. A.K.A. Steak & beer.  ;D
If Homebrew & BBQ aren't the answer, then you're askin' the wrong questions... Cheers!!!