Author Topic: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose  (Read 1119 times)

Offline duboman

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Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« on: February 08, 2014, 11:03:43 AM »
So I am revisiting my Gose. The first time around I simply soured it by using acidulated malt and lactic acid and while the results were good I am looking to improve. This beer, while tasty did not fair well in competition and the main comment was it was not sour enough. I really used about what I thought was a reasonable limit of ingredients without getting wierd off flavors from too much malt and lactic acid.

The recipe was provided by a brewery and their instructions were to create a sour wort first using Lacto. Once the desired sourness was reached after a few days and then it was boiled to kill off the lacto and then proceed with a traditional boil with the usual hop additions, etc and then fermented.

I am planning on using WY1007 as I did with the first batch but would also like to use the lacto. My question is: Is it really necessary to first produce the wort, then sour, then boil and then ferment with the 1007? Or can I simply do the traditional boil, chill and pitch the lacto and allow the souring to begin at a higher temp, cool down to the lower temp and then pitch the 1007 and allow the entire beer to finish? Would this possibly create too sour of a Gose?

Just trying to simplify the process but not risk the final product, looking for some guidance:)
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 12:52:20 PM »
Well, nobody does it that way. So...  If you're using a pure lacto culture it might work. Maybe try it on a one gallon batch. Nice benefits of the method recommended to you get stable sourness and no contamination worries.

I've used that method to culture lacto off of grain. You really need to boil after that because the mélange of critters creates some DMS that gets boiled off.

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Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 01:07:42 PM »

Well, nobody does it that way. So...  If you're using a pure lacto culture it might work. Maybe try it on a one gallon batch. Nice benefits of the method recommended to you get stable sourness and no contamination worries.

I've used that method to culture lacto off of grain. You really need to boil after that because the mélange of critters creates some DMS that gets boiled off.

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so if I understand, the method used by the brewery would be the recommended method to get the desired profile and sourness of the Gose?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »

Well, nobody does it that way. So...  If you're using a pure lacto culture it might work. Maybe try it on a one gallon batch. Nice benefits of the method recommended to you get stable sourness and no contamination worries.

I've used that method to culture lacto off of grain. You really need to boil after that because the mélange of critters creates some DMS that gets boiled off.

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so if I understand, the method used by the brewery would be the recommended method to get the desired profile and sourness of the Gose?

combined with the stability and knowledge that it won't get any MORE sour.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2014, 02:51:09 PM »
Cool, thanks for the input!
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2014, 02:51:38 PM »
How sour it gets will depend on temperature and how long you let lacto work. It prefers 100-110F. What culture are you using?

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Offline duboman

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Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2014, 03:47:05 PM »
How sour it gets will depend on temperature and how long you let lacto work. It prefers 100-110F. What culture are you using?

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as for selection, I have not looked into that yet, recommendations? Is there one that will work well at lower than 100F? My heating set up gets into the high 80's/low 90's with a little bit of effort;). I can assume then also that I would only need to chill the wort down to those temps to pitch as well then?
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2014, 07:46:34 PM »
Chill to 110F and pitch. It'll slowly cool to 90 which is fine. It will just work more slowly at 90. It should taste pretty sour after 24 or 48 hours.

I had a Berliner made with wyeast lacto that was pretty good.

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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 07:18:38 AM »
I think things are getting crossed here. Rockhopper is talking about souring the mash and duboman is talking about a sour fermentation.

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 08:02:38 AM »

I think things are getting crossed here. Rockhopper is talking about souring the mash and duboman is talking about a sour fermentation.

What I understand the process to be is to do the traditional mash and Lauter into the kettle/vessel, cool and pitch the lacto. Allow this to sour the initial wort, then proceed with the traditional boil and continue as a normal beer with hop additions, chill and then pitch the yeast and allow to ferment out, am I correct?
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Offline hoser

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 08:26:13 AM »
Duboman,

I have made a couple of Goses this last summer.  To some degree based on your hibiscus gose recipe you acquired from Boulevard.  I might add the hibiscus version is quite tasty!  I have also done a peach version.

What I have typically done is made a small lacto starter 1000ml or so with some DME as you normally would for yeast and then pitched a small amount of grain into the starter.  It usually takes 3-5 days to see some real good activity.

Then I do my mash as normal.  Run off into the kettle to a quick boil, although 170-180F would be acceptable.  This basically gives you a blank slate to work with.  Chill down to about 110F. Pitch your lacto starter and cover.  Try to minimize oxygen exposure.  I usually cover the wort with saran wrap. 

Come back the next morning and brew your beer as you normally would.  It's pretty neat to see a lacto ferment in action.  It should be a 'clean' lacto smell.  I believe my pH the both times I checked them were in the range of 2.85-3.10 in less than 24 hours with the lacto starter.

I have not entered either beer in a comp yet, but a couple of people's palates I really trust thought they were both really good.  They have also been more sour than the few commercial examples of goses I have been able to locate.

Remember, judging is still subjective no matter how hard we as judges try to not make it be.

Most importantly, did you like the beer?  Do you feel there needs to be any changes?  Sometimes we get to caught up in what judges perceive and fail to take into account all the variables at the judging table.  It causes us to lose sight of our enjoyment of the final product that we crafted by hand.

Good Luck!

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 09:39:59 AM »
Hoser,

Thanks for the information on process, exactly what I was looking for!

The first batch turned out very well and was enjoyed by many. The Hibiscus contributions were spot on and the salt additions I nailed but the sour aspect was lacking and was noted by several.

I thought I could "cheat" by using lactic acid and acidulated malt to achieve this aspect and while it didn't completely fail, it most certainly was a noted flaw in the beer and needed to be corrected.

I think I just over thought the whole souring process and became a bit intimidated but now I understand that there really isn't much to it and actually pretty straight forward so I'm going for it!

Gary
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 10:34:09 AM »
I would add the lacto the full mash with grains. It will hold temp better over the 48 hours. Might make you cooler smell funky if you batch sparge.

Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 01:09:59 PM »

I think things are getting crossed here. Rockhopper is talking about souring the mash and duboman is talking about a sour fermentation.

What I understand the process to be is to do the traditional mash and Lauter into the kettle/vessel, cool and pitch the lacto. Allow this to sour the initial wort, then proceed with the traditional boil and continue as a normal beer with hop additions, chill and then pitch the yeast and allow to ferment out, am I correct?
That is what I'm talking about exactly. Of course, it's not the only way.

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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 01:15:15 PM »

I thought I could "cheat" by using lactic acid and acidulated malt to achieve this aspect and while it didn't completely fail, it most certainly was a noted flaw in the beer and needed to be corrected.
For yet another tangent, acidulated malt is just malt sprayed with lactic acid.

You can sour with just adding lactic acid, you just need more. But it does tend to be too clean and less interesting. IMHO
Jimmy K

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