Author Topic: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose  (Read 2536 times)

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 01:33:51 PM »


I thought I could "cheat" by using lactic acid and acidulated malt to achieve this aspect and while it didn't completely fail, it most certainly was a noted flaw in the beer and needed to be corrected.
For yet another tangent, acidulated malt is just malt sprayed with lactic acid.

You can sour with just adding lactic acid, you just need more. But it does tend to be too clean and less interesting. IMHO
exactly, that's what was noted on the first batch and had I used even more it would've tasted off in getting the degree of sour needed.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 06:13:15 PM »
I've made two no boil Berliner Weisses.  If you use a commercial culture, whether Wyeast or White Labs, the lacto only eats glucose so you don't have to worry about stability IIRC.  I've bottled one of my no boil BWs without any issues.

This year I'm thinking of doing a no boil using malt as the source of lacto.  I plan to keg this one.
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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2014, 06:35:45 AM »
I've made two no boil Berliner Weisses.  If you use a commercial culture, whether Wyeast or White Labs, the lacto only eats glucose so you don't have to worry about stability IIRC.  I've bottled one of my no boil BWs without any issues.
I have never heard that and have soured wort made with only DME? Lacto fermentation doesn't produce CO2 though, so you don't have to worry about bottle bombs.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2014, 07:52:12 AM »
I've made two no boil Berliner Weisses.  If you use a commercial culture, whether Wyeast or White Labs, the lacto only eats glucose so you don't have to worry about stability IIRC.  I've bottled one of my no boil BWs without any issues.
Lacto fermentation doesn't produce CO2 though, so you don't have to worry about bottle bombs.

Yeah but all bets are off if you are culturing off the grain and not boiling because you'll definitely get more than just lacto from the grain.
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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2014, 07:58:37 AM »
I've made two no boil Berliner Weisses.  If you use a commercial culture, whether Wyeast or White Labs, the lacto only eats glucose so you don't have to worry about stability IIRC.  I've bottled one of my no boil BWs without any issues.
Lacto fermentation doesn't produce CO2 though, so you don't have to worry about bottle bombs.

Yeah but all bets are off if you are culturing off the grain and not boiling because you'll definitely get more than just lacto from the grain.
Oh yeah. But I get a lot of DMS from culturing grain - probably from one of those other critters. I wouldn't ever do that without boiling after. Need to drive off that DMS.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2014, 08:31:37 AM »
I don't think I am going to play around with a no boil deal this time around, or the lacto in the mash. The process suggested by Hoser looks like it will get the job done with little/no complication and fits my set up nicely!

Appreciate all the ideas and clarifications on process to get this done, now I just have to schedule..............

Gary
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Offline brewbaker

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 11:56:37 AM »
Lot of misinformation here, not necessarily wrong but not techniques that should be trusted to produce consistent results.

If you are looking to use a cultured lacto vial, from WLP for instance, there are some things to consider:

1. You dont want to ferment with 100% cultured lacto at anything above 80F. The lacto culture from WLP is not designed for high ferment temps. I got this information direct from the supplier and can dig through my emails for a verbatim quote if so desired. I have fermented with it at 110F, 90F, 80F and 70F and have gotten by far the best results at the middle ground of 70F-80F max.

2. You want to limit, if not eliminate O2. This is still an anaerobic fermentation process, you dont want to just cover your mash with plastic wrap. This will allow entero bacteria to grow easier and the lacto will throw off weird flavors (sometimes cheese like, sometimes creamed corn like, sometimes approaching stale bar and potentially vomit and dirty baby diaper). In small amounts some O2 is good as it helps with growth and I find a subtle bit of a funky cheese/corn like aroma adds a bit of complexity.

3. Boiling is not really advisable pre lacto ferment. From everything I have researched there are some interesting chemical reactions that occur that make things more difficult for lacto and in addition can create some weird off flavors. I have only tried to boil pre lacto ferment once and I did not care for the results. This is in no way statistically significant and is more an anecdote. Take this with a grain of salt (especially if it is a gose  ;D)

Finally, it is a much taken approach to sour mash to "just throw in some grains". To which I say is nonsense. This will not give you reproducible results, and is taking a big chance with your beer. If you want that risk and potential chance for more complexity in flavor (both good and bad!) then go for it.

So, with all that in mind here is my recommended method to properly mash souring your beer:

1. Mash as normal.
2. Lauter/Sparge into your boil kettle as normal
3. Bring the wort to 170F and hold for approximately 5 minutes. This will ensure that you kill all bacteria and yeast present on the grain and in the wort.
4. Cool wort to 70-80F and transfer to a fermentor. I use a dedicated sour PET fermentor.
5. Pitch pure lacto culture. No starter required. I have done starter and sans starter methods, neither sour the beer much quicker than just pitching a straight lacto vial in the wort. Again, personal preference on lacto starter.
6. Sour for 1-3 days depending on taste and if you have a pH meter, the pH. Personally, I find the sweet spot around 36-48 hours. I dont use a pH meter. If going by taste be sure you take into account the relative sourness as the wort is still very sweet. It is going to taste more sour post yeast fermentation.
7. Transfer the soured wort back to your boil kettle and proceed as normal.

That method has produced, time and time again, great sour beers. If I may brag a little, I brought a maibock I soured this way to NHC 2013 and actually received compliments from Dick Cantwell of Elysian on the beer.

Anyway, like anything in homebrewing and in life, take it for what it is worth. or dont.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:05:25 PM by brewbaker »

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 02:48:49 PM »

Lot of misinformation here, not necessarily wrong but not techniques that should be trusted to produce consistent results.

If you are looking to use a cultured lacto vial, from WLP for instance, there are some things to consider:

1. You dont want to ferment with 100% cultured lacto at anything above 80F. The lacto culture from WLP is not designed for high ferment temps. I got this information direct from the supplier and can dig through my emails for a verbatim quote if so desired. I have fermented with it at 110F, 90F, 80F and 70F and have gotten by far the best results at the middle ground of 70F-80F max.

2. You want to limit, if not eliminate O2. This is still an anaerobic fermentation process, you dont want to just cover your mash with plastic wrap. This will allow entero bacteria to grow easier and the lacto will throw off weird flavors (sometimes cheese like, sometimes creamed corn like, sometimes approaching stale bar and potentially vomit and dirty baby diaper). In small amounts some O2 is good as it helps with growth and I find a subtle bit of a funky cheese/corn like aroma adds a bit of complexity.

3. Boiling is not really advisable pre lacto ferment. From everything I have researched there are some interesting chemical reactions that occur that make things more difficult for lacto and in addition can create some weird off flavors. I have only tried to boil pre lacto ferment once and I did not care for the results. This is in no way statistically significant and is more an anecdote. Take this with a grain of salt (especially if it is a gose  ;D)

Finally, it is a much taken approach to sour mash to "just throw in some grains". To which I say is nonsense. This will not give you reproducible results, and is taking a big chance with your beer. If you want that risk and potential chance for more complexity in flavor (both good and bad!) then go for it.

So, with all that in mind here is my recommended method to properly mash souring your beer:

1. Mash as normal.
2. Lauter/Sparge into your boil kettle as normal
3. Bring the wort to 170F and hold for approximately 5 minutes. This will ensure that you kill all bacteria and yeast present on the grain and in the wort.
4. Cool wort to 70-80F and transfer to a fermentor. I use a dedicated sour PET fermentor.
5. Pitch pure lacto culture. No starter required. I have done starter and sans starter methods, neither sour the beer much quicker than just pitching a straight lacto vial in the wort. Again, personal preference on lacto starter.
6. Sour for 1-3 days depending on taste and if you have a pH meter, the pH. Personally, I find the sweet spot around 36-48 hours. I dont use a pH meter. If going by taste be sure you take into account the relative sourness as the wort is still very sweet. It is going to taste more sour post yeast fermentation.
7. Transfer the soured wort back to your boil kettle and proceed as normal.

That method has produced, time and time again, great sour beers. If I may brag a little, I brought a maibock I soured this way to NHC 2013 and actually received compliments from Dick Cantwell of Elysian on the beer.

Anyway, like anything in homebrewing and in life, take it for what it is worth. or dont.
[/quote/]

Thank you! When I am ready to brew this I will take all these posts into account. Appreciate everyone's advice
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Offline Pinski

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 04:02:58 PM »
Lot of misinformation here, not necessarily wrong but not techniques that should be trusted to produce consistent results.

If you are looking to use a cultured lacto vial, from WLP for instance, there are some things to consider:

1. You dont want to ferment with 100% cultured lacto at anything above 80F. The lacto culture from WLP is not designed for high ferment temps. I got this information direct from the supplier and can dig through my emails for a verbatim quote if so desired. I have fermented with it at 110F, 90F, 80F and 70F and have gotten by far the best results at the middle ground of 70F-80F max.

2. You want to limit, if not eliminate O2. This is still an anaerobic fermentation process, you dont want to just cover your mash with plastic wrap. This will allow entero bacteria to grow easier and the lacto will throw off weird flavors (sometimes cheese like, sometimes creamed corn like, sometimes approaching stale bar and potentially vomit and dirty baby diaper). In small amounts some O2 is good as it helps with growth and I find a subtle bit of a funky cheese/corn like aroma adds a bit of complexity.

3. Boiling is not really advisable pre lacto ferment. From everything I have researched there are some interesting chemical reactions that occur that make things more difficult for lacto and in addition can create some weird off flavors. I have only tried to boil pre lacto ferment once and I did not care for the results. This is in no way statistically significant and is more an anecdote. Take this with a grain of salt (especially if it is a gose  ;D)

Finally, it is a much taken approach to sour mash to "just throw in some grains". To which I say is nonsense. This will not give you reproducible results, and is taking a big chance with your beer. If you want that risk and potential chance for more complexity in flavor (both good and bad!) then go for it.

So, with all that in mind here is my recommended method to properly mash souring your beer:

1. Mash as normal.
2. Lauter/Sparge into your boil kettle as normal
3. Bring the wort to 170F and hold for approximately 5 minutes. This will ensure that you kill all bacteria and yeast present on the grain and in the wort.
4. Cool wort to 70-80F and transfer to a fermentor. I use a dedicated sour PET fermentor.
5. Pitch pure lacto culture. No starter required. I have done starter and sans starter methods, neither sour the beer much quicker than just pitching a straight lacto vial in the wort. Again, personal preference on lacto starter.
6. Sour for 1-3 days depending on taste and if you have a pH meter, the pH. Personally, I find the sweet spot around 36-48 hours. I dont use a pH meter. If going by taste be sure you take into account the relative sourness as the wort is still very sweet. It is going to taste more sour post yeast fermentation.
7. Transfer the soured wort back to your boil kettle and proceed as normal.

That method has produced, time and time again, great sour beers. If I may brag a little, I brought a maibock I soured this way to NHC 2013 and actually received compliments from Dick Cantwell of Elysian on the beer.

Anyway, like anything in homebrewing and in life, take it for what it is worth. or dont.

I really like this concept. Particularly because you isolate the bugs to the BK and dedicated equipment and it would work well to do a split batch and only sour half of it. Thanks!
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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2014, 09:17:38 PM »
Very cool.  Thanks for the input!  I have been looking for this kind of direction since getting into sours.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2014, 03:08:52 PM »

My Hibiscus Gose is finally ready! It's fantastic, perfectly soured and just a taste of salt, thank you to all the helped me out in figuring out the lactobacillus!
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2014, 03:48:32 PM »
Which lacto souring process did you end up using?  If you pitched a commercial strain, which one was it?  What was the pH of the finished beer?  How much hibiscus did you use? 

Wyeast is releasing Lacto Brevis in July.  The same strain Cascade uses.  More hop tolerant than the others.

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 04:10:42 PM »
Which lacto souring process did you end up using?  If you pitched a commercial strain, which one was it?  What was the pH of the finished beer?  How much hibiscus did you use? 

Wyeast is releasing Lacto Brevis in July.  The same strain Cascade uses.  More hop tolerant than the others.

I did the traditional mash and ran off to boil for about 15 minutes, cooled to 90 and pitched 2 packs of WY5335 into 6 gal of wort and held at 95 for 4 days, brought the pH down to 4.0. Due to my schedule I then crashed the primary to 35 to halt the souring until the weekend.

I then proceeded with the traditional boil and hop additions per recipe. The recipe I use calls for 2oz of Hibiscus flowers at flame out and they steep for about 20 minutes. There is 22 grams of sea salt added at 10 minutes. Cooled and pitched WY1007 and fermented at 58 until done. Slowly brought the temp down to 38 and lagered it for 2 weeks and then bottled it to 2.8 vol.

You can find the recipe in this thread:https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15426.15 if you scroll to the March 14th entry you'll have the new recipe
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2014, 07:12:03 AM »
Thanks.  I have a hibiscus beer in the pipeline, but haven't used hibiscus in beer before.  I use it in ice tea frequently.  Tasty stuff. 

Offline duboman

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Re: Using Lactobacillus in my Gose
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2014, 07:25:52 AM »
It is, I like it in the lighter styles and try to stay away from the late addition aroma hops so the floral characteristics of the hibiscus shine through
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