Author Topic: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?  (Read 1828 times)

Offline majorvices

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 02:48:12 PM »
I'm not convinced that hop stands are really necessary or that they do anything more than chilling as fast as you can at flameout.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 05:02:15 PM »
I'm not convinced that hop stands are really necessary or that they do anything more than chilling as fast as you can at flameout.

I spent a long time chasing the level of hop intensity I wanted in my hoppy beers, and using a hop stand is the one change that got me there. Maybe an insane amount of hops at flameout might get you there with no steep, but I'd hate to waste a pound of hops to test that out.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 05:30:20 PM »
I'm not convinced that hop stands are really necessary or that they do anything more than chilling as fast as you can at flameout.

I spent a long time chasing the level of hop intensity I wanted in my hoppy beers, and using a hop stand is the one change that got me there. Maybe an insane amount of hops at flameout might get you there with no steep, but I'd hate to waste a pound of hops to test that out.

+1.  After the Zymurgy and BYO articles I gave it a try, since it was recommended for homebrewers who wanted to try to emulate what commercial brewers get from whirlpool hopping. I feel like it's pretty noticeable for the better, in flavor and aroma. I can only speak for my system and methods though.
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Offline flbrewer

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 06:12:50 PM »
I'm not convinced that hop stands are really necessary or that they do anything more than chilling as fast as you can at flameout.

Just to clarify...a hop stand would make up for a slow chilling as it relates to hop utilization?

Offline erockrph

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »
I'm not convinced that hop stands are really necessary or that they do anything more than chilling as fast as you can at flameout.

Just to clarify...a hop stand would make up for a slow chilling as it relates to hop utilization?

We're kind of talking two different things. Hop utilization refers to how much bitterness (IBU's) you get out of your hops in the boil. Depending on what temp you hold your hop stand at, you will get some additional utilization (i.e., bitterness) versus if you rapidly cooled your wort below the temps that hop Alpha Acids isomerize at (roughly 170-180F)

The goal of a hop stand is primarily to extract extra flavor and aroma compounds from your hops. Hop oils are quite volatile and will boil off rapidly in boiling wort. But they are extracted better at higher temperatures. By holding your wort at a high temperature (but below boiling) the idea is that you are extracting a lot more of the hop oils compared to if you rapidly chilled your wort, but aren't losing as much to a vigorous boil. There is also some speculation that hop oils bind to the sugars dissolved in the wort and therefore may be even less likely to evaporate. That is also one of the proposed mechanisms for why you get more flavor contribution from FWH as compared to a normal 60-minute bittering addition.

In my experience, I get a huge hop flavor from hop stands. I also find that beers that use FWH and hop stands seem to retain their hop flavor longer than traditionally-hopped beers. I have a hunch that there is some chemistry going on in the sub-boiling temperature range that helps extract/retain/enhance hop flavor compounds. I'd love to see someone run some tests using HPLC/GCMS to see if something is truly going on.
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Offline ultravista

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 08:24:50 PM »
If not boiling, shouldn't I also get flavor and aroma from the flameout addition? Is it the time, +90 minutes or the heat, that is driving the flavor and aroma off?

Offline pinnah

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2014, 09:15:49 PM »

I feel like it's pretty noticeable for the better, in flavor and aroma. I can only speak for my system and methods though.

+3.  Excellent results with the hopstand with my system as well.  I also chill to around 180 and then dump in the hopstand hops.  I only stand for about 30-40 minutes however...as erockrph said, he is insane. ;D


Hmm, I also stir the pot...

I am not convinced that the rapid chill is so critical. 
What about all those Australians that do not even chill wort?  Think they get any hop flavornaroma?
 
Is the rapid chill really necessary?  For clarity? for aroma retention?





Offline majorvices

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2014, 08:43:45 AM »
Well, maybe I stand corrected. I should at least go back and read the zymurgy article. I just haven't ever had problems getting huge hop aroma out of my method. OTOH I do a 20 min. "hop stand" all the time on my 10bbl system, but it is close to boiling temps.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2014, 12:38:34 PM »
Well, maybe I stand corrected. I should at least go back and read the zymurgy article. I just haven't ever had problems getting huge hop aroma out of my method. OTOH I do a 20 min. "hop stand" all the time on my 10bbl system, but it is close to boiling temps.

Huge hop aroma isn't as much of an issue as flavor in my experience, since you can always dry hop to turn that up. Hop stands definitely boost aroma, but they massively boost flavor.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2014, 12:50:49 PM »
Well, maybe I stand corrected. I should at least go back and read the zymurgy article. I just haven't ever had problems getting huge hop aroma out of my method. OTOH I do a 20 min. "hop stand" all the time on my 10bbl system, but it is close to boiling temps.

Huge hop aroma isn't as much of an issue as flavor in my experience, since you can always dry hop to turn that up. Hop stands definitely boost aroma, but they massively boost flavor.

Yep. The extra aroma from the stand is an added bonus, but the flavor boost is huge.  Dry hopping aroma is  stronger (and better IMO), but the flavor from the hop stand is better. That's why I do both.
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Offline ultravista

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 07:43:41 AM »
erockrph - would you mind step-by-step detailing your hop stand procedure?

Offline blatz

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 07:58:06 AM »
I do what a lot of others here have said.

Whirlpool/recirc with a march pump thru CFC and chill down to 180.  Put in massive load of whirlpool/flameout hops, continue to whirlpool for 20 min, then turn off the pump and let settle 10-20 min, the proceed to runoff through CFC to fermentor, chilling down to 50df in <15-20min.

Never have had any clarity or head retention issues.  I think you all have seen enough pics of my final products to agree with that.

I do also believe in massive dryhopping on top of that.  As Hoosier said, the whirlpool/flameout is good but not nearly the level of intensity that dryhopping provides.  I don't dryhop my APA or amber and both of them have plenty of hop aroma for the style(s)
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Offline blatz

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 08:01:19 AM »
Isn't the obvious answer here to try cutting down the hop stand after flameout?

Not necessarily.  He can still do the hop stand if he likes, but he needs to get the wort below 180df quickly to halt the isomerization and release of volatiles.
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Offline brewsumore

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Re: How Fast do you Chill Your Wort Post Boil?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 12:02:04 PM »
From what I've read, 90 minutes is the high end of the recommended 30 - 90 minutes for a hop stand, with different hop characteristics obtained at different temperatures.  Offhand I don't recall the low end of the temp scale, but IIRC it is around 150F.

I need to go find that info again.  Partly out of laziness, I have just gone to turning off the burner, and stirring every few minutes, typically for 45 minutes, as I did this past weekend for a Summit Amarillo Citra IPA I made with FWH, 60 (Summit only), 5,1, and 0 (all citra) to a calculated 63 IBU, plus the supposedly ~10% additional isomerization from the hop stand, for a 1.066 OG beer.  The fermentation aroma is wonderful, and the chilled wort tasted great.