Author Topic: Another band-aid off flavor post  (Read 1862 times)

Offline macbrews

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 07:05:35 PM »
One other thought on the temps - Either from curiosity or OCD I sometimes attach a second temp probe to the side of the fermenter that will read the high and the low temperatures during the fermentation.  It is very interesting and sometimes surprising to see what the temps really were during the whole process.  They aren't expensive and can be bought at radio shack etc.  Might take a look at that.

Mac

Offline theoman

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 01:24:30 AM »
Do you use any other household cleaners nearby? 409 to clean the sink? Reusing a sponge?

Offline thcipriani

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 10:33:35 AM »
Although it's probably not a very popular thing to suggest, have you tried playing with the pitching rate at all? I had tons of problems with my hefe, felt like I tried everything—ferments from 60°F to 75°F, O2 rates from 8ppm–14ppm.

Finally, I tried 20E6 cells/mL and that was the worst yet! Then I tried pitching at 6E6 cells/mL and all my problems went away. Had a conversation with Wyeast and they said that they found the same thing—pitching much higher than 6E6 for hefes I causes problems. Just my experience.
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Offline denny

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2014, 10:59:49 AM »
Although it's probably not a very popular thing to suggest, have you tried playing with the pitching rate at all? I had tons of problems with my hefe, felt like I tried everything—ferments from 60°F to 75°F, O2 rates from 8ppm–14ppm.

Finally, I tried 20E6 cells/mL and that was the worst yet! Then I tried pitching at 6E6 cells/mL and all my problems went away. Had a conversation with Wyeast and they said that they found the same thing—pitching much higher than 6E6 for hefes I causes problems. Just my experience.

Tyler, did you count cells to verify how much you were pitching?
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Offline thcipriani

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2014, 04:53:21 PM »
Tyler, did you count cells to verify how much you were pitching?

Yes, I do hemocytometer counts to verify pitching. I don't, however, do any viability testing for starters made from fresh smack-packs, so there is likely some variability.

I also try to keep tight controls on other measurements. My temp is controlled with a 2-stage Ranco, fridge and ferm-wrap to ±1°F and the O2 was measured with a Milwaukee DO Meter.

I posted my discussion regarding 3068 with Wyeast on this forum previously; here is the link to that thread: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.msg162616#msg162616

As I said, it's not popular advice to say, "pitch less yeast", but I'd try that before I'd try buying all new equipment, especially if your other beers are coming out fine. Those phenolic yeasts are very particular about pitching rate in my experience.
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2014, 06:20:16 AM »
And the OP may be ultra sensitive to the particular flavors detected.  I am not big on clovey flavor, because I detect it all the time when others say that don't detect it at all...

I agree that overpitching can increase esters - I once overpitched on a light ale using US-05 and fermented very cold (54F) and felt the phenolics were much higher than expected.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2014, 08:06:50 PM »
And the OP may be ultra sensitive to the particular flavors detected.  I am not big on clovey flavor, because I detect it all the time when others say that don't detect it at all...

I agree that overpitching can increase esters - I once overpitched on a light ale using US-05 and fermented very cold (54F) and felt the phenolics were much higher than expected.

don't confuse esters and phenols. different critters. different causes.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 05:44:33 AM »
Correct, but both can be present and I think were due in my case to the combination of overpitching an ale and fermenting too low - which caused what, I don't know....but phenolic makes me think of antiseptic flavor (band aid), whereas esters are more fruit-like flavor (like the S-23 dry lager yeast produces abundantly).  If I am using those terms incorrectly, I am willing to be corrected.  My water contains no chlorine, so the phenolics were not due to chlorinated tap water use, for example.... :-\
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2014, 06:29:39 AM »
Aren't those called chlorophenols and just a subset of phenols? More chloroseptic ish than that latex flavor or bandaid?

Then what about all the other flavors that are having an effect on the big picture. I think these off flavors are clues when combined with other info can help us find problems. But it's really hard to diagnose based on what one person thinks tastes like bandaid and making a decision on that one point of subjective data.

Offline thirdeyeo4

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2014, 05:14:54 PM »
I'm currently fermenting a Wit that I brewed on Sat, I started it at 64F for a day and now I'll let it sit at 68-70F for the remainder of the fermentation. Do you think I should try pulling very small samples every couple of days to see at what point the flavor gets into the beer, if it does this time? It's only a 3g batch so I don't want to take too many samples.

To answer a couple questions above no I don't think I'm oversensitive to clove and phenolic flavors. I've had probably hundreds of different types of these beers and it's never as much as this.

Also I don't use any odd cleaners on any of my equipment, just Oxyclean Free with a good rinse and then StarSan.

Offline gmwren

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2014, 07:41:11 PM »
Well, it sounds like your process is good, but there is a remote chance an infection could cause some issues. What about the gas lines? No one ever cleans those and if you had a back up sometime in the past, it could just now be manifesting itself.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2014, 08:29:40 PM »
Aren't those called chlorophenols and just a subset of phenols? More chloroseptic ish than that latex flavor or bandaid?

Then what about all the other flavors that are having an effect on the big picture. I think these off flavors are clues when combined with other info can help us find problems. But it's really hard to diagnose based on what one person thinks tastes like bandaid and making a decision on that one point of subjective data.

Agreed - there are tons of phenols, just that the "band aid" is one of them as is clovey, smokey, spicey, etc....  There are also flavonoids, isoflavonoids,etc...
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 12:54:38 AM »
Sweet! I'm learning something

Offline ddcurtis69

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Re: Another band-aid off flavor post
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2014, 06:34:57 AM »
Here is the table I use for this particular off flavor:

How is it caused?                                    How can it be avoided/controlled?
Wild yeast                                                Use pure yeast strains
Improper sanitation                                   Practice good sanitation
Some malt types                                      Use "clean" malt
Some yeast strains                                   Use yeast less prone to phenolic production
Chlorophenols in water                               Filter tap water
Improper rinse of chlorine sanitizers             use non-chlorine sanitizer
Oversparging; sparging above pH 6.0
sparging above 170°F.                                  Proper sparging while monitoring pH and temperature   


From my experience, if you are using RO water and don't have a problem with sanitation, it would probably be related to either the yeast strain or sparging issues as noted above.  RO water should not have anything left in it that would cause you a problem and I have never had an issue with StarSan.