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I thought session beers were mashed at low temps. to make them drier, and therefore more drinkable?I mash my low gravity saison, bitter, dry stout, and cream ale at 149f usually for 90 minutes. They are dry and crisp, but I wouldn't say watery. So if mashed higher they would have better mouthfeel , but not taste too sweet?
Quote from: hopfenundmalz on February 26, 2014, 10:39:11 amQuote from: denny on February 26, 2014, 10:29:53 amFWIW, Greg Doss found the greatest fermentability at 154F IIRC.It was 153F for Pils malt. There was a local maximum. Fairly flat at lower temps until 148 or 149, then it increases with the peak at 153, then decreases with a steady slope as the temp increases.The yeast used will have a big influence, one should consider that also. Greg had data for yeast strains also.I also believe he conducted his mash for 45 minutes regardless of temperature. I always suspected that you may see the fermentability of the lower-temp mashes in this study increase if they were given more time.
Quote from: denny on February 26, 2014, 10:29:53 amFWIW, Greg Doss found the greatest fermentability at 154F IIRC.It was 153F for Pils malt. There was a local maximum. Fairly flat at lower temps until 148 or 149, then it increases with the peak at 153, then decreases with a steady slope as the temp increases.The yeast used will have a big influence, one should consider that also. Greg had data for yeast strains also.
FWIW, Greg Doss found the greatest fermentability at 154F IIRC.
Quote from: erockrph on February 26, 2014, 11:56:19 amQuote from: hopfenundmalz on February 26, 2014, 10:39:11 amQuote from: denny on February 26, 2014, 10:29:53 amFWIW, Greg Doss found the greatest fermentability at 154F IIRC.It was 153F for Pils malt. There was a local maximum. Fairly flat at lower temps until 148 or 149, then it increases with the peak at 153, then decreases with a steady slope as the temp increases.The yeast used will have a big influence, one should consider that also. Greg had data for yeast strains also.I also believe he conducted his mash for 45 minutes regardless of temperature. I always suspected that you may see the fermentability of the lower-temp mashes in this study increase if they were given more time. +1. That's my feeling. While 153F may have proven out in a mash of that duration, I still feel that a 75 -90 minute mash @ 148F wins, in terms of fermentability. Obviously recipe design comes into play heavily regardless.
Quote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 03:07:23 pmI thought session beers were mashed at low temps. to make them drier, and therefore more drinkable?I mash my low gravity saison, bitter, dry stout, and cream ale at 149f usually for 90 minutes. They are dry and crisp, but I wouldn't say watery. So if mashed higher they would have better mouthfeel , but not taste too sweet?Correct, the kind of body/mouthfeel left behind by a less fermentable wort is not sweet, just full and malty. Whereas, underattenuation says to be that the yeast didn't finish with all the (sweeter) fermentable sugars that are there and is less pleasant to me.
Quote from: HoosierBrew on February 26, 2014, 04:21:05 pmQuote from: erockrph on February 26, 2014, 11:56:19 amQuote from: hopfenundmalz on February 26, 2014, 10:39:11 amQuote from: denny on February 26, 2014, 10:29:53 amFWIW, Greg Doss found the greatest fermentability at 154F IIRC.It was 153F for Pils malt. There was a local maximum. Fairly flat at lower temps until 148 or 149, then it increases with the peak at 153, then decreases with a steady slope as the temp increases.The yeast used will have a big influence, one should consider that also. Greg had data for yeast strains also.I also believe he conducted his mash for 45 minutes regardless of temperature. I always suspected that you may see the fermentability of the lower-temp mashes in this study increase if they were given more time. +1. That's my feeling. While 153F may have proven out in a mash of that duration, I still feel that a 75 -90 minute mash @ 148F wins, in terms of fermentability. Obviously recipe design comes into play heavily regardless.IIRC he did a test with longer times, 75 minutes at 153F was better than 45 minutes at 153F.I might have to read that one again.
Quote from: morticaixavier on February 26, 2014, 03:22:23 pmQuote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 03:07:23 pmI thought session beers were mashed at low temps. to make them drier, and therefore more drinkable?I mash my low gravity saison, bitter, dry stout, and cream ale at 149f usually for 90 minutes. They are dry and crisp, but I wouldn't say watery. So if mashed higher they would have better mouthfeel , but not taste too sweet?Correct, the kind of body/mouthfeel left behind by a less fermentable wort is not sweet, just full and malty. Whereas, underattenuation says to be that the yeast didn't finish with all the (sweeter) fermentable sugars that are there and is less pleasant to me.So is the goal to have the same % attenuation but a higher FG?With a mash @ 150, and an OG of 1.039 and an FG of 1.011, thats 72% atten.You're saying shoot for maybe an FG of 1.016. So I would have to shoot for an OG of 1.057 to wind up at 1.016 with 72% attenuation?But 1.039 to 1.011 I end up with a 3.7% beer.and going from 1.057 to 1.016 I end up with 5.4% beer.Also I can't imagine the styles I listed in my other post would taste better finishing at 1.016.I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here?
I think the degree of attenuation is influenced by everything. Water, nutrients, pH, grist, mash temp, bla bla , the particular yeast strain itself, and thier health, but in my opinion the greatest contributor is fermentor temp. Namely stability.
Quote from: klickitat jim on February 26, 2014, 06:32:16 pmI think the degree of attenuation is influenced by everything. Water, nutrients, pH, grist, mash temp, bla bla , the particular yeast strain itself, and thier health, but in my opinion the greatest contributor is fermentor temp. Namely stability.again though, you're talking about not letting the yeast finish which in under attenuation rather than lower attenuation. a fully attenuated session beer that was done at 55%AA is better in my opinion than a beer that wanted to finish at say 70% but through mishandling was caused to finish at 55% the second one is going to taste sweet and, well, unfinished, while the first will taste malty and finished but with lot's of body and a full mouthfeel.
Quote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 05:01:40 pmQuote from: morticaixavier on February 26, 2014, 03:22:23 pmQuote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 03:07:23 pmI thought session beers were mashed at low temps. to make them drier, and therefore more drinkable?I mash my low gravity saison, bitter, dry stout, and cream ale at 149f usually for 90 minutes. They are dry and crisp, but I wouldn't say watery. So if mashed higher they would have better mouthfeel , but not taste too sweet?Correct, the kind of body/mouthfeel left behind by a less fermentable wort is not sweet, just full and malty. Whereas, underattenuation says to be that the yeast didn't finish with all the (sweeter) fermentable sugars that are there and is less pleasant to me.So is the goal to have the same % attenuation but a higher FG?With a mash @ 150, and an OG of 1.039 and an FG of 1.011, thats 72% atten.You're saying shoot for maybe an FG of 1.016. So I would have to shoot for an OG of 1.057 to wind up at 1.016 with 72% attenuation?But 1.039 to 1.011 I end up with a 3.7% beer.and going from 1.057 to 1.016 I end up with 5.4% beer.Also I can't imagine the styles I listed in my other post would taste better finishing at 1.016.I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here?The idea is to have a higher FG at the same OG. For Example, my Dark Mild starts at 1.042 and ends at 1.024. Its actually less than 50% AA, and is only 2.6% ABV calculated. It has a full body, but not very much residual sweetness.If I want a full malt flavor, I mash high for a less fermentable wort, which makes it taste like a bigger beer than it is. I would mash a table saison low, because crisp/thin and drinkable are a hallmark of the style. Same with the hoppier/drier styles.Does that make sense?
Quote from: garc_mall on February 26, 2014, 06:22:38 pmQuote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 05:01:40 pmQuote from: morticaixavier on February 26, 2014, 03:22:23 pmQuote from: dzlater on February 26, 2014, 03:07:23 pmI thought session beers were mashed at low temps. to make them drier, and therefore more drinkable?I mash my low gravity saison, bitter, dry stout, and cream ale at 149f usually for 90 minutes. They are dry and crisp, but I wouldn't say watery. So if mashed higher they would have better mouthfeel , but not taste too sweet?Correct, the kind of body/mouthfeel left behind by a less fermentable wort is not sweet, just full and malty. Whereas, underattenuation says to be that the yeast didn't finish with all the (sweeter) fermentable sugars that are there and is less pleasant to me.So is the goal to have the same % attenuation but a higher FG?With a mash @ 150, and an OG of 1.039 and an FG of 1.011, thats 72% atten.You're saying shoot for maybe an FG of 1.016. So I would have to shoot for an OG of 1.057 to wind up at 1.016 with 72% attenuation?But 1.039 to 1.011 I end up with a 3.7% beer.and going from 1.057 to 1.016 I end up with 5.4% beer.Also I can't imagine the styles I listed in my other post would taste better finishing at 1.016.I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here?The idea is to have a higher FG at the same OG. For Example, my Dark Mild starts at 1.042 and ends at 1.024. Its actually less than 50% AA, and is only 2.6% ABV calculated. It has a full body, but not very much residual sweetness.If I want a full malt flavor, I mash high for a less fermentable wort, which makes it taste like a bigger beer than it is. I would mash a table saison low, because crisp/thin and drinkable are a hallmark of the style. Same with the hoppier/drier styles.Does that make sense?That makes sense. I've just seen so many mentions about mashing low gravity beers @ high mash temps. But usually no one ever mentions the style of low gravity beer.So the whole high mash temp for low gravity beers, isn't for every style.It seems to me just use higher mash temps. for a more malty beer whatever the gravity?