Author Topic: Bias in BJCP judging?  (Read 4605 times)

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2014, 05:03:04 PM »

until AmandaK does a retake and sets a new record score, I'm Kansas' only Master Judge.

figure it out.  ;)

cheers--
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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2014, 06:33:22 PM »
Learned the new items for the day, re the yeast and the chromosome numbers. Back a while, I knew there were differences in lager yeasts, and then it was termed Carlsberg or Tuborg types.

Saaz-type strains are diploids that contain one set (haploid) of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (S. cerevisiae) chromosomes  and one set (haploid) of Saccharomyces eubayanus (S. eubayanus) chromosomes.  Frohberg-type strains are triploids that contain two sets (diploid) of S. cerevisiae and one set (haploid) of S. eubayanus genes.  Both families inherited their cold tolerance genes from S. eubayanus. 

While the first lager strain isolated at Carlsberg Laboratory was a diploid Saaz-type yeast strain (Carlsberg No. 1, which is available in its original form from CBS-KNAW in the Netherlands and the NCYC in the UK, http://www.ncyc.co.uk/yeast-ncyc-396.html), not all Carlsberg yeast strains are diploids.  I know for a fact that Carlsberg production strain No. 244 is a tetraploid (4 sets of chromosomes) with aneuploidy (with respect to brewer's yeast, aneuploidy is a condition where the total number of chromosomes is not a multiple of 16).   This information has been confirmed by Jürgen Wendland at Carlsberg Laboratory.

Speaking of Jürgen Wendland, here is a link to a paper that he and his colleagues just published about lager yeast genetics: http://www.g3journal.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=24578374.  If the information presented in this paper withstands the rigors of peer review, he and his team are about to re-write what we know about the Saaz and Frohberg families.  He proposes that the Saaz strains are triploids with one set (haploid) S. cerevisiae chromosomes and two sets (diploid) of S. eubayanus chromosomes.  He also proposes that the Frohberg strains are tetraploids with two sets (diploid) S. cerevisiae chromosomes and two sets (diploid) of S. eubayanus chromosomes.

I have only exchanged a couple of e-mails messages with Jürgen, but he is definitely a guy with whom I would like spend some time talking about yeast genetics.  He is a rockstar in the world of yeast genetics.


Quote
I would think that some of the Midwestern breweries would have strains brought from Germany, as many of those were established at or around the big immigration wave in the 1870s. Any thoughts on German strains used?

Well, it appears that the Christian Schmidt strain was also popular in the Midwest.  However, we need to put things into context.  Christian Schmidt took over a former ale brewery in 1860 (the Courtenay Brewery).  At that point in time, all yeast cultures were mixed cultures, as the first pure lager yeast culture was not isolated until 1883.  It's unclear when the first pure Christian Schmidt culture was isolated.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 09:05:39 PM by S. cerevisiae »
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Separate the National Homebrew Conference from the National Homebrew Competition

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2014, 06:39:19 PM »
I judged all day yesterday for our club's competition (the Bluebonnet) and judged an ESB that had huge concord grape flavors. Made me think of this thread.

It bet that the beer was fermented with Young's strain or a closely related strain.  Young's strain can throw huge grape notes when stressed. 
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Separate the National Homebrew Conference from the National Homebrew Competition

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Offline dkfick

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2014, 07:55:11 PM »
Many of the styles are not "historically" accurate.  I mean most these styles had Brett and other bacteria in them, the malts where kilned with heating methods that smoked and altered the flavor of the malt, malts in general have changed, hops have changed, etc... The style guidelines are all for modern interpretations of styles.  This is why the style guidelines also change occasionally to keep up with what brewers are currently brewing.
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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2014, 08:55:44 PM »
I do appreciate the strong opinions expressed here, but I am dismayed that we don't have names and reputations to accompany all of them. Please consider including a little more self identification if you intend to be taken seriously. Slackers like myself, denny, mdixon, etc  ;) that stand behind their words with a level of name recognition are much more likely to be civil. I understand a reluctance to use your full name to reduce the chance of being searched via the web, but you can make it possible to show who you are. I have found that great friendships and appreciation can come of it.

I will gladly connect a first and last name to my forum user name if we meet at the NHC.   I attend an event every year where each forum member has an additional badge that bears his/her user name.  This event is rather large, so it is kind of like our inside secret.  Most of the active forum members have met in person, but we prefer to remain anonymous online.
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Separate the National Homebrew Conference from the National Homebrew Competition

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Online Jimmy K

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2014, 09:38:34 AM »
I always tell people to think of the guidelines more like targets in a shooting competition. At the end of the day, it makes no difference if that piece of paper has a hole in it. What matters is a marksman's ability to hit that target. You wouldn't go to a shooting contest and claim that you meant to hit that tree instead of the target.
 
I'm oversimplifying a little, but the BJCP guidelines provide targets. If you're competing, then you're being judged on your ability to hit that target because that is a measure of brewing skill.
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Offline alestateyall

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2014, 10:40:07 AM »

I always tell people to think of the guidelines more like targets in a shooting competition. At the end of the day, it makes no difference if that piece of paper has a hole in it. What matters is a marksman's ability to hit that target. You wouldn't go to a shooting contest and claim that you meant to hit that tree instead of the target.
 
I'm oversimplifying a little, but the BJCP guidelines provide targets. If you're competing, then you're being judged on your ability to hit that target because that is a measure of brewing skill.

Good point.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bias in BJCP judging?
« Reply #112 on: March 10, 2014, 09:40:04 PM »
Well, in a competition it seems like there has to be some way of defining the goal, how to score, how to play, what constitutes a foul, etc.

I do much better at golf when I use a little soccer rules, but I can't get the damn PGA to let me kick the ball once in a while. They suck, I'm awesome!