Author Topic: 100% Vienna  (Read 2961 times)

Offline johnf

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 09:43:15 AM »
Reading the guidelines calls for "light reddish amber to copper color." How does Negra modelo fit this description? I've brewed 100% Vienna Vienna Lagers that hit the light reddish amber (a decoction darkens a bit). For that matter I've brewed a Munich with 100% dark Munich that made an award winner.

To add to the confusion, the brewer bills Negra Modelo as a Dunkel, even though it's really just a dark Vienna.

It's really a Dark American Lager in BJCP terms if you are considering sensory characteristics, ingredients, and production methods rather than tenuous historical links.

Shiner Bock is as much a Traditional Bock as Negra Modelo is a Vienna Lager. For that matter Warsteiner Dunkle (which is at least all malt) is more of a Munich Dunkel than Negra Modelo is a Vienna Lager but in that case the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example. I would argue the inclusion of Negra Modelo is the bad choice and the exclusion of Warsteiner Dunkle is the good choice but they are wildly different choices.

Offline euge

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 02:05:43 PM »
No-one actually thinks Shiner Bock is a bock beer- even here in Texas. I think the 4A designation is quite appropriate.
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Offline wsoublo

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 05:54:21 PM »
...the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example.

I find that there's quite a few listed classic examples that do not agree with the actual beer style. 

I often wonder if it's because head brewers and subsequently recipes change over time, or the style guidelines were really that far off when they were last revised. 

I mean I was graduating high school in 2004, and I'm not sure how many classic examples changed from the 2004 to 2008 style guidelines revision because I wasn't really interested in judging beers during college. 

Offline johnf

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2014, 08:06:22 PM »
...the style guideline committee made a completely different choice in terms of whether or not a beer different than what was being described should be included as a classic example.

I find that there's quite a few listed classic examples that do not agree with the actual beer style. 

I often wonder if it's because head brewers and subsequently recipes change over time, or the style guidelines were really that far off when they were last revised. 

I mean I was graduating high school in 2004, and I'm not sure how many classic examples changed from the 2004 to 2008 style guidelines revision because I wasn't really interested in judging beers during college.

That is certainly possible but I don't think it is the case with Negra Modelo, both because it is an industrial product and because I have been drinking it that long.

Their are other really odd classic examples like Sam Adams Light in 1A. I would like to think that beer used to be very different.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 08:17:21 PM »
SAL has too much flavor for 1A in my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:57:53 PM by klickitat jim »

Offline blatz

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 06:23:21 AM »
I remember Kai doing a video and documenting the color of the wort throughout the brewing process on a triple decoction and he found that it didn't really darken it (if I'm remembering correctly).

I recall that as well - didn't he estimate it at maybe a half SRM if that?  where is kai anyways?
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Offline beersk

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 08:11:36 AM »
I remember Kai doing a video and documenting the color of the wort throughout the brewing process on a triple decoction and he found that it didn't really darken it (if I'm remembering correctly).

I recall that as well - didn't he estimate it at maybe a half SRM if that?  where is kai anyways?
I haven't seen him post on any of the forums for a while now...it's a shame with his wealth of knowledge.
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Offline denny

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2014, 08:13:37 AM »
where is kai anyways?

The last I heard from him, working and spending time with his family.
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Offline dixonmike20

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100% Vienna
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2014, 06:42:57 PM »
1. Vienna is one of my all time favorite malts.

2. I would assume the decoction mash made them a little darker. But, now I have something new to research to be certain :)

3. BJCP, or at least some judges, can at times be a little petty with their grading. When I judge a beer, and color is the only thing off, I don't mark down. The reason being is that I've had the pleasure of living in Europe and have seen very wide color ranges on the same style...and many of them would be marked low based on BJCP guidelines for color.
Yet, they invented the freakin style.
Never underestimate the ability of douchebags to tell Europeans how to brew their own beer.



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« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 06:44:32 PM by dixonmike20 »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 07:33:40 PM »
I mark you down one point for harshness.

Offline dixonmike20

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2014, 07:35:32 PM »
And I mark you down one for a thin skin


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2014, 07:58:50 PM »
At the risk of derailing... tis the season to vent about judges and guidelines. I hereby wave my magic wand and make everyone realize it's all just for fun, and the best imperfect system we have. I'm just glad to be here. Its cool to be super into a hobby. I cringe though when super into guidelines meets super into MY beer. The brewing world seems like a great place to just be a little bit more laid back.

Offline hoser

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2014, 06:07:46 AM »
At the risk of derailing... tis the season to vent about judges and guidelines. I hereby wave my magic wand and make everyone realize it's all just for fun, and the best imperfect system we have. I'm just glad to be here. Its cool to be super into a hobby. I cringe though when super into guidelines meets super into MY beer. The brewing world seems like a great place to just be a little bit more laid back.

This^^^^

BTW, a dash of carafa III in 100% Vienna malt mash for a Vienna lager gets you into the prerequisite SRM range per guidelines without impacting the flavor or aroma. ;D

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2014, 10:46:12 AM »
At the risk of derailing... tis the season to vent about judges and guidelines. I hereby wave my magic wand and make everyone realize it's all just for fun, and the best imperfect system we have. I'm just glad to be here. Its cool to be super into a hobby. I cringe though when super into guidelines meets super into MY beer. The brewing world seems like a great place to just be a little bit more laid back.

This^^^^

BTW, a dash of carafa III in 100% Vienna malt mash for a Vienna lager gets you into the prerequisite SRM range per guidelines without impacting the flavor or aroma. ;D

Agreed as to all, but how much grain is a dash?
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Offline denny

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Re: 100% Vienna
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2014, 10:52:16 AM »
Agreed as to all, but how much grain is a dash?

And that's the reason I use Sinamar to darken beers.  With grain you have to make a guess as to how much to put in the mash.  If you guess wrong, you're stuck.  With Sinamar, I can just add a bit at a time until I hit the color I want.  And since it's made from the same grain you'd put in the mash, the only difference is ease of use.
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