Author Topic: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?  (Read 898 times)

Offline jweiss206

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Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« on: March 08, 2014, 01:43:10 PM »
So I brewed a Standard American Lager for my wife back in December. I lagered it in the garage until 2/18 between 36-40 degree's. Just tried the first bottle after 2 and a half weeks of carbonating and it doesn't taste right. Her favorite beer is Asahi Dry, so I built the recipe around rice.  Here was the grain bill for a 4.5 gallon batch (I added the Rice Syrup Solids to boil, not the mash)

6-Row (US)          6.0 lb    60%
Rice Hulls                 1.0 lb    10%    
Flaked Rice         1.0 lb    10%    
Rice Syrup Solids    1.0 lb    10%
Pilsner (US)         0.5 lb    5%    
Dextrose                8.0 oz    5%

I added the Rice Syrup Solids because the brewshop ran out of flaked rice so I subbed with the solids. The beer tastes kind of like someone added some milk to an otherwise standard lager. I'm blaming the solids as to adding that lactose like flavor. Anyone experienced this? I'm curious if the flavor will mellow with additional aging or did I simply use to much of the rice syrup? I don't think it's Diacetyl, I've tasted that before and this isn't reminding me of that.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 01:48:40 PM by jweiss206 »

Offline denny

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 01:47:40 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with your recipe and I've never gotten off flavors from rice syrup.  Sorry...

Why did you need the rice hulls, especially so much?
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Offline jweiss206

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 01:51:23 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with your recipe and I've never gotten off flavors from rice syrup.  Sorry...

Why did you need the rice hulls, especially so much?

I adapted it from an Asahi Clone recipe that mentioned this - 1# rice hulls (or your mash will be ugly thick and a stuck mash assured). Perhaps it was overkill.

Offline duboman

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 04:08:48 PM »
It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?
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Offline jweiss206

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2014, 12:14:55 AM »
It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?

I just took a bottle to two very experienced homebrewer friends of mine. One of whom has judged in the past. It's DMS. "Creamed Corn" flavor, I thought it was lactose. Oh well :( no more lagers for me till next year

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2014, 05:12:57 AM »
Interestingly, the creamed corn/DMS is acceptable under some lager styles (2C, for example), but too much is a problem according to BJCP guidelines, evidently. 
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2014, 05:31:10 AM »
I go to great lengths to reduce my dimethylsulfate foot print. Just doing my part

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 06:17:11 AM »
It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?

I just took a bottle to two very experienced homebrewer friends of mine. One of whom has judged in the past. It's DMS. "Creamed Corn" flavor, I thought it was lactose. Oh well :( no more lagers for me till next year

DMS comes from the grains, a long enough boil will drive it off. It can also come from infections.
This write up was interesting, I learned that 6-row has more of the precursor, SMM.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

I don't have high DMS levels in my lagers, I do long boils and have healthy fermentations that last about 6-7 days, with a D-rest at the end. The D-rest is done with about 8 gravity points left, and the fermentation is more vigorous which drives off DMS and H2S.
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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 09:17:44 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with your recipe and I've never gotten off flavors from rice syrup.  Sorry...

Why did you need the rice hulls, especially so much?

I adapted it from an Asahi Clone recipe that mentioned this - 1# rice hulls (or your mash will be ugly thick and a stuck mash assured). Perhaps it was overkill.

In my mash tun I wouldn't have needed any at all for that recipe.
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Offline denny

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2014, 09:18:35 AM »
It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?

You cannot reach the 360F temperature you need for caramelization in a kettle of liquid.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2014, 10:23:39 AM »

It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?

You cannot reach the 360F temperature you need for caramelization in a kettle of liquid.
well, so nix that idea.... I guess I was thinking more scorching then caramelizing:p
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Offline jweiss206

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 03:41:07 PM »
It's my understanding that rice syrup solids are pretty fermentable and should thin out the beer and raise the ABV. When di you add it in the boil? Is it possible it carmelized from a long boil? I wouldn't think you should get a milk/lactose flavoring from it at all. What was your final gravity, did it fully ferment out prior to lagering?

I just took a bottle to two very experienced homebrewer friends of mine. One of whom has judged in the past. It's DMS. "Creamed Corn" flavor, I thought it was lactose. Oh well :( no more lagers for me till next year

DMS comes from the grains, a long enough boil will drive it off. It can also come from infections.
This write up was interesting, I learned that 6-row has more of the precursor, SMM.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

I don't have high DMS levels in my lagers, I do long boils and have healthy fermentations that last about 6-7 days, with a D-rest at the end. The D-rest is done with about 8 gravity points left, and the fermentation is more vigorous which drives off DMS and H2S.

After checking out that link, I'm pretty sure I didn't have a rigorous enough boil going. I have a Bayou Classic Jet Burner that's a heat monster. With a full on boil I'll often lose nearly half the wort to evaporation if I don't dial in the flame. Lately I've tended to use a gentler boil, I haven't noticed any DMS in my ales. Perhaps that gentler boil caused the DMS to not burn off appropriately and was thus more noticeable in a lager. Lesson learned.

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 06:33:01 PM »
As Denny mentioned, the rice hulls are unnecessary. 

You should try using a double mash with rice grits next time you brew the beer.  I find that grits tend to have a slightly different flavor than flakes.  I usually soak my grits overnight in the liquor in which they will be gelatinized.
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Offline denny

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 09:20:35 AM »
As Denny mentioned, the rice hulls are unnecessary. 

You should try using a double mash with rice grits next time you brew the beer.  I find that grits tend to have a slightly different flavor than flakes.  I usually soak my grits overnight in the liquor in which they will be gelatinized.

When I want to use rice I just toss some Minute Rice in the mash.  Simple and effective.

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Offline johnf

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Re: Off flavors (lactose) with Rice Syrup Solids?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 09:50:33 AM »
Interestingly, the creamed corn/DMS is acceptable under some lager styles (2C, for example), but too much is a problem according to BJCP guidelines, evidently.

It is at least allowed in 1A-1E, 2A, 2C, and 6A. It is required or expected (however you want to phrase that) in a few of those.