Author Topic: Thoughts/Opinions  (Read 1771 times)

Offline duboman

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Thoughts/Opinions
« on: March 09, 2014, 09:38:25 AM »
Let me start by clearly stating I am NOT trying to slam a club or comp, simply looking for thoughts or opinions on my curiosity:

A recent competition I just received scoring on (on-line, not actual score sheets) posted the results of all BOS and 31 tables. There were 733 entries and 341 participants.

The sponsoring club placed 31 medals of the 93 available or a full 30% of which, if my math is correct from only a pool of 10% of the total entrants. They also took the BOS in meads, ciders and beers making a total of 35 medals.

Does anyone else find this curious?

Side note: I sent the same beers to two separate comps and while I have not gotten score sheets/feedback from the most recent all entries received MUCH lower scores than the previous, like not even in the same ballpark
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2014, 10:16:10 AM »
How many entries did that club have? From my experience, clubs tend to enter their own comps very heavily. I've seen a club claim a third of the prizes, but account for half the entries.

Offline duboman

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »
How many entries did that club have? From my experience, clubs tend to enter their own comps very heavily. I've seen a club claim a third of the prizes, but account for half the entries.

Well, I honestly have no idea how many entries they had as a club but it's a big club of over 100 members I believe so I suppose that would answer my curiosity that they alone could have comprised well more than half the entries submitted if not more, I don't know, kind of takes the fun out of it :-\
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2014, 11:07:00 AM »
Good point on the local involvement.  There is always a push to win your own competition by getting the membership to enter as many beers as possible.
I'm glad the one mentioned wasn't our recent competition, because we have at least 5 clubs involved in running it.  It's hard to have a bias when the organizer, the judge director and the cellar men are all from different clubs.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2014, 11:27:17 AM »
Good point on the local involvement.  There is always a push to win your own competition by getting the membership to enter as many beers as possible.
I'm glad the one mentioned wasn't our recent competition, because we have at least 5 clubs involved in running it.  It's hard to have a bias when the organizer, the judge director and the cellar men are all from different clubs.

It is a good point, but in the same breath, what's the point of having a sponsoring a comp and more than 50-60% of entries come from your own club taking home the bulk of medals? Is it just to amass a lot of points to place in the AHA club comp? MCAB Comp? Homebrewer of the Year award? If that's the goal, then I plan on doing more research on the club sponsored competitions I decide to enter in the future.
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Offline Bruce B

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2014, 11:47:25 AM »
Based on the numbers provided in the initial post of this thread I'm pretty confident that I judged and won a first place medal in the competition that was being referenced.  I also would have been on the mini-bos panel that awarded 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, place entries for two categories and been on the Mead / Cider BoS panel as well.  I am not a member of the club that hosted the competition but I do know several of the members, organizers, and some of the history of the competition. 

The host club has several talented brewers.  In addition to doing very well every year in their own competition they also did very well at several of the other competitions that I coordinate.  Many of the club members brew specifically for this competition, which is probably why the entry limit was hit so quickly.  It's also a very well run competition and draws in several judges from out of the host club's state. 

Nothing to be curious about here.  These guys and gals just have game.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2014, 12:05:19 PM »
Another factor that can influence the quality of beers judged, is whether the samples were shipped or dropped off. It is a proven fact that handling and vibration does reduce the quality and character of the beer. One factor that has proven itself is shipping to contests in the summer. The heat clearly accelerates the damage. Given the timing of this contest, it doesn't seem likely that heat had an effect. But in the absence of this factor, I don't doubt that the home club has really good brewers. Contest participation does have a way of refining and enhancing brewing skill.
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 01:48:01 PM »

It is a good point, but in the same breath, what's the point of having a sponsoring a comp and more than 50-60% of entries come from your own club taking home the bulk of medals? Is it just to amass a lot of points to place in the AHA club comp? MCAB Comp? Homebrewer of the Year award? If that's the goal, then I plan on doing more research on the club sponsored competitions I decide to enter in the future.

I guess I just don't understand what the problem is.
Competitions are about who has the best beer, right?   Does it matter where it comes from?
AHA Club of the year comes only from NHC anymore.  MCAB is a circuit known well in advance anyone can enter.  Homebrewer of the Year sounds like a solo award; who cares if a club has a bunch of medals.  What goal are you talking about?  Is there anything really other than bragging rights at stake here?

Also, while I'm happy if a fellow club member wins something, I can't say that it really means anything to me.  It's not like they were all club group brews.  There's a few of those, sure, but it doesn't really say anything about my brewing if a fellow club member wins.

Finally, with the insane amount of work that sponsoring clubs put into a competition, the awards/banquet can be a "we're finally done!" party.  Why shouldn't they have a bunch of beers entered and cheer for their friends who win?  They did all the work!

Offline Rhoobarb

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 01:48:30 PM »
What Bruce B said.  I had a 1st, 2nd and 3rd in this comp, along with two that didn't place at all.  The wins are something I am very proud of, mainly b/c the club in question has SO many top-notch brewers. And so many brewers from outside the club bring their game. I look forward to this comp each year, as it is so well run and is a real indicator of just how good (or not so good) your beers are.  The score sheet feedback is usually very thorough, too.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2014, 02:09:54 PM »
I figured out the comp, looked it up, and a friend from my club did well. He is a top notch brewer, and often medals in this competition.

The host club has some outstanding brewers. Yes they do.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2014, 03:03:28 PM »

It is a good point, but in the same breath, what's the point of having a sponsoring a comp and more than 50-60% of entries come from your own club taking home the bulk of medals? Is it just to amass a lot of points to place in the AHA club comp? MCAB Comp? Homebrewer of the Year award? If that's the goal, then I plan on doing more research on the club sponsored competitions I decide to enter in the future.

I guess I just don't understand what the problem is.
Competitions are about who has the best beer, right?   Does it matter where it comes from?
AHA Club of the year comes only from NHC anymore.  MCAB is a circuit known well in advance anyone can enter.  Homebrewer of the Year sounds like a solo award; who cares if a club has a bunch of medals.  What goal are you talking about?  Is there anything really other than bragging rights at stake here?

Also, while I'm happy if a fellow club member wins something, I can't say that it really means anything to me.  It's not like they were all club group brews.  There's a few of those, sure, but it doesn't really say anything about my brewing if a fellow club member wins.

Finally, with the insane amount of work that sponsoring clubs put into a competition, the awards/banquet can be a "we're finally done!" party.  Why shouldn't they have a bunch of beers entered and cheer for their friends who win?  They did all the work!

There really isn't a problem and I'm sorry you thought I implied there was one. I didn't really give thought to the fact that a club of over a hundred brewers could have each member submit several entries and essentially have more than half the entries in the comp as a whole, It all makes more sense that way.

I'm sorry if if this came off as a bash in anyway as I clearly stated that was not my intent to start. Congrats to those that won with their outstanding beers and all those that help put all this together, looking forward to my scoresheets and reviews.

I am not petty, nor am I a sore loser, I like my beer and am proud of my product.

Cheers,
Gary
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Offline mklawz

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
As the Head Organizer for the DMC I'd like to offer some replies....

There were 733 entries and 341 participants. - THE PARTICIPANT NUMBER INCLUDES COMPETITORS, JUDGES, AND STEWARDS.  WE HAD OVER 160 VOLUNTEERS REGISTERED IN OUR SYSTEM.

it's a big club of over 100 members - YES, WE ARE ONE OF THE LARGEST, OLDEST, AND ONE OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN CLUBS IN THE MIDWEST.

How many entries did that club have? - HECK IF I KNOW, I'D HAVE TO DO THE MATH MANUALLY AND I'M NOT ABOUT TO SPEND TIME ON THAT.

they alone could have comprised well more than half the entries submitted if not more, I don't know, kind of takes the fun out of it - TAKES THE FUN OUT FOR WHO?  AND HOW SO?    WE AREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO HALF ANYWAY.

what's the point of having a sponsoring a comp and more than 50-60% of entries come from your own club taking home the bulk of medals - WHAT'S THE POINT?  CAMARADERIE, FEEDBACK, FUN, TALKING SMACK, BRAGGING RIGHTS.  IT'S OUR CLUB'S BIGGEST EVENT, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF THE WOOD WORK AND PUT THEIR BEST FOOT FORWARD.  AS FOR YOUR PERCENTAGE AND MY ABOVE COMMENTS ABOUT COUNTING ENTRIES, AFTER QUICKLY SCROLLING THRU ALL THE ENTRIES, I WOULD *GUESS* THAT ROUGHLY 30% ARE OUR CLUB'S ENTRIES.  IT'S NOWHERE NEAR 50-60%. 

The host club has several talented brewers. - THANKS BRUCE!   HONESTLY, OUR CLUB HAS DOZENS OF EXTREMELY TALENTED BREWERS.   JOE FORMANEK - 2X NINKASI WINNER, 5X MIDWEST HOMEBREWER OF THE YEAR, AND LONGSHOT WINNER.  RODNEY KIBZEY - MEAD MAKER OF THE YEAR, 2X LONGSHOT WINNER, MANY NHC MEDALS.   YOURS TRULY - MCAB GRAND CHAMPION, 4X MCAB MEDALIST WITH 3 GOLDS, 2X NHC MEDALIST.   AND MANY OTHER GUYS WHO CLEAN UP AT LOCAL AREA COMPS.   LOTS OF GUYS JUST DONT CARE ABOUT ENTERING ALL THESE COMPS, BUT THEY SURE DO ENTER THEIR HOME-TURF COMP.   ONE OF OUR CLUB'S BIGGEST GUNS WAS UNEMPLOYED FOR OVER A YEAR.  THIS GUY MAKES BETTER BEERS, MEADS, AND CIDERS THAN THE STUFF YOU PAY $15 A BOTTLE FOR.   ANYWAY, DOES HE SEND HIS ENTRIES TO SOME FAR AWAY COMP WHILE HE'S OUT OF WORK?  NO, BUT HE ENTERS THE DMC. 

Is it just to amass a lot of points to place in the AHA club comp? MCAB Comp? Homebrewer of the Year award?  WE ARE A QUALIFYING EVENT FOR MCAB SO WE PULL PEOPLE FOR THAT.  BUT ACTUALLY, WE PULL OUT OF STATERS FOR THAT.  ONLY A HANDFUL OF GUYS IN OUR OUR CLUB GIVE A HOOT ABOUT NHC AND MCAB.    NO, YOU DONT GET AHA POINTS FOR LOCAL COMPS.  WE ARE ALSO A MEMBER OF HOMEBREWER OF THE YEAR CIRCUIT, BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF DUCKING OUR COMP BECAUSE IT'S SO HARD TO WIN!

Is there anything really other than bragging rights at stake here? - NOPE, THAT'S IT.  JUST BRAGGING RIGHTS.

Finally, with the insane amount of work that sponsoring clubs put into a competition, the awards/banquet can be a "we're finally done!" party.  Why shouldn't they have a bunch of beers entered and cheer for their friends who win?  They did all the work! - DAMN STRAIGHT!    MOST PEOPLE DONT HAVE THE FIRST CLUE ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK IT TAKES TO PUT THESE THINGS ON.  ESPECIALLY ONE OF OUR SIZE.    LIKE MENTIONED EARLIER, IT'S OUR BIGGEST EVENT OF THE YEAR.  IT'S OUR "BABY",  THE FOUNDERS OF THIS COMP WORKED EXTREMELY HARD TO BUILD IT UP TO WHAT IT HAS BECOME.  AND MY CURRENT TEAM IS THE HARDEST WORKING AND MOST DEDICATED GROUP OF PEOPLE I'M ASSOCIATED WITH.    THERE IS A REASON SOME COMPS ARE "GOOD" COMPS AND SOME ARE NOT.  IT'S THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT.  OUR CLUB PUTS ON A GREAT EVENT FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE A PART OF IT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  MANY PEOPLE OUTSIDE OUR CLUB LOOK FORWARD TO PARTICIPATING AND ATTENDING EVERY YEAR.  AND NOW MANY OF THEM WE CONSIDER PART OF OUR COMMUNITY AND LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THEM COME EVERY YEAR.   AND YES, I HOPE THEY WIN.   WHY WOULDN'T I WANT MY FRIENDS AND FELLOW CLUB MEMBERS TO GET RECOGNITION FOR THEIR EFFORTS?   NOTHING QUIETS THE CROWD MORE THAN WHEN I CALL OUT SOMEONE'S NAME FROM CALIFORNIA (FOR EXAMPLE) AND NO ONE WALKS UP TO THE PODIUM.  (ACTUALLY, THERE IS ALWAYS SOME APPLAUSE).    BUT WHEN THE FOLKS WHO ARE IN ATTENDANCE WIN, IT'S FUN!   THEY ARE THRILLED, AND EVERYONE IS THRILLED FOR THEM.  THAT'S WHY SO MANY LOCAL PEOPLE ENTER, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF THE FUN.

I had a 1st, 2nd and 3rd in this comp, - ANOTHER GREAT SHOWING BY RHOOBARB!

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT WINNING PERCENTAGES, OUR CLUB'S WINS GO DOWN AS THE YEARS GO ON.  WE CONTINUE TO ATTRACT MORE AND MORE ENTRIES FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE COUNTRY.   AND IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER TO WIN.  THAT'S A FACT.

I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP SOME OF THE CURIOSITY/CONCERNS YOU HAVE ABOUT OUR COMPETITION.  I ALSO HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO ENTER AND I ENCOURAGE YOU TO ATTEND ONE YEAR.  IT'S A GREAT TIME!

CHEERS!
YOUR DMC ORGANIZER

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 05:35:46 AM »
Kudos

Offline duboman

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 05:46:24 AM »

As the Head Organizer for the DMC I'd like to offer some replies....

There were 733 entries and 341 participants. - THE PARTICIPANT NUMBER INCLUDES COMPETITORS, JUDGES, AND STEWARDS.  WE HAD OVER 160 VOLUNTEERS REGISTERED IN OUR SYSTEM.

it's a big club of over 100 members - YES, WE ARE ONE OF THE LARGEST, OLDEST, AND ONE OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN CLUBS IN THE MIDWEST.

How many entries did that club have? - HECK IF I KNOW, I'D HAVE TO DO THE MATH MANUALLY AND I'M NOT ABOUT TO SPEND TIME ON THAT.

they alone could have comprised well more than half the entries submitted if not more, I don't know, kind of takes the fun out of it - TAKES THE FUN OUT FOR WHO?  AND HOW SO?    WE AREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO HALF ANYWAY.

what's the point of having a sponsoring a comp and more than 50-60% of entries come from your own club taking home the bulk of medals - WHAT'S THE POINT?  CAMARADERIE, FEEDBACK, FUN, TALKING SMACK, BRAGGING RIGHTS.  IT'S OUR CLUB'S BIGGEST EVENT, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF THE WOOD WORK AND PUT THEIR BEST FOOT FORWARD.  AS FOR YOUR PERCENTAGE AND MY ABOVE COMMENTS ABOUT COUNTING ENTRIES, AFTER QUICKLY SCROLLING THRU ALL THE ENTRIES, I WOULD *GUESS* THAT ROUGHLY 30% ARE OUR CLUB'S ENTRIES.  IT'S NOWHERE NEAR 50-60%. 

The host club has several talented brewers. - THANKS BRUCE!   HONESTLY, OUR CLUB HAS DOZENS OF EXTREMELY TALENTED BREWERS.   JOE FORMANEK - 2X NINKASI WINNER, 5X MIDWEST HOMEBREWER OF THE YEAR, AND LONGSHOT WINNER.  RODNEY KIBZEY - MEAD MAKER OF THE YEAR, 2X LONGSHOT WINNER, MANY NHC MEDALS.   YOURS TRULY - MCAB GRAND CHAMPION, 4X MCAB MEDALIST WITH 3 GOLDS, 2X NHC MEDALIST.   AND MANY OTHER GUYS WHO CLEAN UP AT LOCAL AREA COMPS.   LOTS OF GUYS JUST DONT CARE ABOUT ENTERING ALL THESE COMPS, BUT THEY SURE DO ENTER THEIR HOME-TURF COMP.   ONE OF OUR CLUB'S BIGGEST GUNS WAS UNEMPLOYED FOR OVER A YEAR.  THIS GUY MAKES BETTER BEERS, MEADS, AND CIDERS THAN THE STUFF YOU PAY $15 A BOTTLE FOR.   ANYWAY, DOES HE SEND HIS ENTRIES TO SOME FAR AWAY COMP WHILE HE'S OUT OF WORK?  NO, BUT HE ENTERS THE DMC. 

Is it just to amass a lot of points to place in the AHA club comp? MCAB Comp? Homebrewer of the Year award?  WE ARE A QUALIFYING EVENT FOR MCAB SO WE PULL PEOPLE FOR THAT.  BUT ACTUALLY, WE PULL OUT OF STATERS FOR THAT.  ONLY A HANDFUL OF GUYS IN OUR OUR CLUB GIVE A HOOT ABOUT NHC AND MCAB.    NO, YOU DONT GET AHA POINTS FOR LOCAL COMPS.  WE ARE ALSO A MEMBER OF HOMEBREWER OF THE YEAR CIRCUIT, BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF DUCKING OUR COMP BECAUSE IT'S SO HARD TO WIN!

Is there anything really other than bragging rights at stake here? - NOPE, THAT'S IT.  JUST BRAGGING RIGHTS.

Finally, with the insane amount of work that sponsoring clubs put into a competition, the awards/banquet can be a "we're finally done!" party.  Why shouldn't they have a bunch of beers entered and cheer for their friends who win?  They did all the work! - DAMN STRAIGHT!    MOST PEOPLE DONT HAVE THE FIRST CLUE ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK IT TAKES TO PUT THESE THINGS ON.  ESPECIALLY ONE OF OUR SIZE.    LIKE MENTIONED EARLIER, IT'S OUR BIGGEST EVENT OF THE YEAR.  IT'S OUR "BABY",  THE FOUNDERS OF THIS COMP WORKED EXTREMELY HARD TO BUILD IT UP TO WHAT IT HAS BECOME.  AND MY CURRENT TEAM IS THE HARDEST WORKING AND MOST DEDICATED GROUP OF PEOPLE I'M ASSOCIATED WITH.    THERE IS A REASON SOME COMPS ARE "GOOD" COMPS AND SOME ARE NOT.  IT'S THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT.  OUR CLUB PUTS ON A GREAT EVENT FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE A PART OF IT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  MANY PEOPLE OUTSIDE OUR CLUB LOOK FORWARD TO PARTICIPATING AND ATTENDING EVERY YEAR.  AND NOW MANY OF THEM WE CONSIDER PART OF OUR COMMUNITY AND LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THEM COME EVERY YEAR.   AND YES, I HOPE THEY WIN.   WHY WOULDN'T I WANT MY FRIENDS AND FELLOW CLUB MEMBERS TO GET RECOGNITION FOR THEIR EFFORTS?   NOTHING QUIETS THE CROWD MORE THAN WHEN I CALL OUT SOMEONE'S NAME FROM CALIFORNIA (FOR EXAMPLE) AND NO ONE WALKS UP TO THE PODIUM.  (ACTUALLY, THERE IS ALWAYS SOME APPLAUSE).    BUT WHEN THE FOLKS WHO ARE IN ATTENDANCE WIN, IT'S FUN!   THEY ARE THRILLED, AND EVERYONE IS THRILLED FOR THEM.  THAT'S WHY SO MANY LOCAL PEOPLE ENTER, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF THE FUN.

I had a 1st, 2nd and 3rd in this comp, - ANOTHER GREAT SHOWING BY RHOOBARB!

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT WINNING PERCENTAGES, OUR CLUB'S WINS GO DOWN AS THE YEARS GO ON.  WE CONTINUE TO ATTRACT MORE AND MORE ENTRIES FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE COUNTRY.   AND IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER TO WIN.  THAT'S A FACT.

I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP SOME OF THE CURIOSITY/CONCERNS YOU HAVE ABOUT OUR COMPETITION.  I ALSO HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO ENTER AND I ENCOURAGE YOU TO ATTEND ONE YEAR.  IT'S A GREAT TIME!

CHEERS!
YOUR DMC ORGANIZER

Wow! First post and you choose to basically YELL and SCREAM?!?

Makes me sorry I posted a thread for asking an opinion on something......

Again, to all, sorry if my question ruffled some feathers:(

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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 05:56:27 AM »

Wow! First post and you choose to basically YELL and SCREAM?!?

Makes me sorry I posted a thread for asking an opinion on something......

Again, to all, sorry if my question ruffled some feathers:(

mklawz certainly didn't need to yell, but I think summed it well when the competition was described as "their baby."  Being protective or defensive when someone suggests the results of your efforts seem curious is natural.  But no worries - I think we all realize you were just trying to understand how it happens. 

if I had a competition that good in in my city I'd enter it very heavily.  Maybe I'll enter theirs next year but I generally hate shipping.  Don't wanna be accused of "ducking" them though.   ;)

cheers--
--Michael