Author Topic: Need volunteers - anyone in cleveland area?  (Read 516 times)

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Need volunteers - anyone in cleveland area?
« on: March 11, 2014, 04:48:55 PM »
So I've got something odd happening with my dark beers- anything with roasted malts. I can't put my finger on the taste, but it's consistent and similar in 3 batches of beer I've made recently. It's a chocolate milk stout, Irish ale, and oatmeal stout. I've made many a batch in between (ales, lagers without roasted malts), before and after and no off tastes or undesirable characteristics- so I'm fairly confidant I'm not dealing with infection. Ph, mash temps, fermentation and sparge temps have all been as targeted. I've also done hot steep and cold steep of roasted malts to see if it changes anything, and it has not. The taste is hard for me to explain, other than it seems phenolic...but I'm not sure that's it.

Anyway, if anyone is willing to give it whirl, I will mail samples out for anyone who thinks they can assist in my discovery of the culprit.

Cheers.


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« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:54:22 AM by wort-h.o.g. »
Ken
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Offline bonjour

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 04:52:08 PM »
I suggest you start by posting recipes and process and describe the taste IN YOUR OWN WORDS, 

I'm pretty sure that we can collectively figure it out.
Fred Bonjour
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AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 04:56:52 PM »
You don't want me - I tend to have a very low threshold on a lot of phenols (I find clove all the time when others say it is not detectable) and evidently a very high one on DMS and Diacetyl (couldn't find it for the life of me in a recent Helles that was called for it in a comp)...so I would not trust my palate, but which flavor profile are you experiencing that causes you to say phenol?

That alone may help...or not.

Could it be yeast based (selection or repitch issue)?
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 06:00:01 PM »
I wish I could describe it better than,phenolic.....it's just hard to nail it down. I hear things like band aids,medicinal but can't say that's it.


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Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 06:11:52 PM »
If this were in all your recent beers, I would suspect chlorine in water or possible infection, as these could cause phenols in beer. Your likely yeast choices for these beers would not likely produces a lot of phenols fermented cool. But since it seems confined to your dark beers, I wonder if the black roasted malts are giving you this impression. I find black patent and roasted barley to be slightly smokey in higher amounts. Also I target a mash pH of ~ 5.5 for these beers, because IMO the darker malts can come across as more acrid and harsh at lower pH. Just a thought.
Jon H.

Offline wsoublo

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 06:14:02 PM »
Are you adding gypsum?  It could be a roasted grain astringency that you're experiencing. 

Does it get better over time?  Also, what's your mash pH?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 06:15:41 PM by wsoublo »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Need volunteers
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 06:26:25 PM »
Good comments. Ph has been 5.4-5.5. Yeast has been Yorkshire square, wlp 007, and wlp041. All ferment at 64-67. Yes gypsum is used- no more than 82ppm for 5 gal batch.no chlorine- I have well water and it goes through RO system for my beer.


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Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 06:32:00 PM »
My chocolate milk stout used cold steep of 8oz English dark crystal, 8 0z light choc malt, and 8 oz carafa 3 dehusked. Oat meal was hot steep 12oz choc malt, 3oz roasted barley, 3oz black malt. Irish red was hot steep 4 oz roasted barley. Irish has the least amount of this taste I'm tasting.



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Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 06:33:40 PM »

Are you adding gypsum?  It could be a roasted grain astringency that you're experiencing. 

Does it get better over time?  Also, what's your mash pH?

Not sure I would know what this is or not...but is gypsum astringency similar to puckering astringency you would get from tannins? If so there is no puckering characteristic at all.


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Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer

Offline wsoublo

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 06:41:56 PM »
I bet it's the gypsum in combination with the dark grains.  Try brewing the same recipe, but replace gypsum with CaCl2. 

I'm not sure astringency was the right word choice in my first post, but it's been my experience that I get a very harsh after taste in dark beers I've brewed with gypsum.  I actually like it in a robust porter.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 06:49:07 PM »
I bet it's the gypsum in combination with the dark grains.  Try brewing the same recipe, but replace gypsum with CaCl2. 

I'm not sure astringency was the right word choice in my first post, but it's been my experience that I get a very harsh after taste in dark beers I've brewed with gypsum.  I actually like it in a robust porter.

interesting hypothesis. ive thought about the brewing salts as a possible culprit. last year i was using well water until i had RO system installed. since RO, ive really had to use brewing salts to dial things in..and im wondering if it has had an impact on the roasted malt recipes.
Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer

Offline wsoublo

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 07:00:10 PM »
The sulfate ions imparted from gypsum leave a harshness, especially in dark beers IME.

If you're just adding gypsum for pH control, replace it with CaCl2.  The calcium in gypsum is reacting with the malt phosphates to liberate H+ ions, which lower the mash pH.  The CaCl2 will have the same effect, just target the same Ca ion concentration using whatever water chemistry software you use.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Need volunteers
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 05:01:14 AM »
The sulfate ions imparted from gypsum leave a harshness, especially in dark beers IME.

If you're just adding gypsum for pH control, replace it with CaCl2.  The calcium in gypsum is reacting with the malt phosphates to liberate H+ ions, which lower the mash pH.  The CaCl2 will have the same effect, just target the same Ca ion concentration using whatever water chemistry software you use.

so im not using gypsum for PH control at all - just targeting a brew profile that has additions of CaCl2, CaSO4, NaHCO3, and bit of MgSO4.  Perhaps I need to start using pickling lime and drop the gypsum levels so I can reach proper calcium levels without exceeding chloride levels.
Ken
Chagrin Falls, OH
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

On Tap or bottled:    
Helles Bock
Dunkelweizen              
Saison                          Northern German Pils 
Robust Porter                Red X APA
Cider
ViennaMandarina IPA
Chardonnay
Riesling
Gewürztraminer