Author Topic: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?  (Read 2133 times)

Offline boulderbrewer

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2014, 08:32:04 AM »
Some we encountered, are a "solid" surface parking lot, enough bathrooms for customers, customer safety things (disability access,exits and lights), city and state permits for building use (include an architect). 
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2014, 11:03:53 AM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline Pinski

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2014, 01:03:54 PM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.

I'm assuming the 50K is for the city's system development charge?  Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's more than simply granting permission. 
Do you actually need more capacity or could you achieve the desired result by submetering?
Steve Carper
Green Dragon Brew Crew
Clubs: Oregon Brew Crew & Strange Brew
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2014, 02:48:46 PM »
What's really amazing is when you are starting up you are like "OMG! That's 5K!" Then, 4 years in you are like "OMG! That's ONLY 5K!!!" ;)
How true is that.
I am still sticking to 10k.

When I started up I was unprepared to hear walking cooler cost.
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Smoked Bock
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2014, 11:08:04 PM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.

I'm assuming the 50K is for the city's system development charge?  Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's more than simply granting permission. 
Do you actually need more capacity or could you achieve the desired result by submetering?
It is:
$18,220 "Connection Charge"
$30,925.75 "CWA includes 3% admin fee"

The CWA is a "Regional Water Connection Charge":
Regional Water Connection Charge (CWA): There is established a regional water connection charge which is imposed upon all owners of real property seeking to connect said property and improvements to the City water system.

I don't know if that's for more than permission, but to me that's the effect.

As for what we need, we could use a 1.5" line for sure.  But instead we're going to split off a smaller line after the meter, probably add a submeter (although we don't have to), and use a cold liquor tank for our on-demand supply.  It will fill as we go and should keep up pretty well, but it will keep us from being affected by water usage in other areas of the building.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline majorvices

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 04:19:52 AM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.

I'm assuming the 50K is for the city's system development charge?  Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's more than simply granting permission. 
Do you actually need more capacity or could you achieve the desired result by submetering?
It is:
$18,220 "Connection Charge"
$30,925.75 "CWA includes 3% admin fee"

The CWA is a "Regional Water Connection Charge":
Regional Water Connection Charge (CWA): There is established a regional water connection charge which is imposed upon all owners of real property seeking to connect said property and improvements to the City water system.

I don't know if that's for more than permission, but to me that's the effect.

As for what we need, we could use a 1.5" line for sure.  But instead we're going to split off a smaller line after the meter, probably add a submeter (although we don't have to), and use a cold liquor tank for our on-demand supply.  It will fill as we go and should keep up pretty well, but it will keep us from being affected by water usage in other areas of the building.

If you get to know the right people some of those charges can be waived. Talk to your local district councilman. Promise him a fundraiser when your doors are open.
Keith Y.

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Offline Pinski

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 07:58:59 AM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.

I'm assuming the 50K is for the city's system development charge?  Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's more than simply granting permission. 
Do you actually need more capacity or could you achieve the desired result by submetering?
It is:
$18,220 "Connection Charge"
$30,925.75 "CWA includes 3% admin fee"

The CWA is a "Regional Water Connection Charge":
Regional Water Connection Charge (CWA): There is established a regional water connection charge which is imposed upon all owners of real property seeking to connect said property and improvements to the City water system.

I don't know if that's for more than permission, but to me that's the effect.

As for what we need, we could use a 1.5" line for sure.  But instead we're going to split off a smaller line after the meter, probably add a submeter (although we don't have to), and use a cold liquor tank for our on-demand supply.  It will fill as we go and should keep up pretty well, but it will keep us from being affected by water usage in other areas of the building.

Yes, it is very expensive to increase capacity or add new connections to municpal water systems.  It's also extremely expensive to operate and maintain the storage, treatment and distribution systems that provide most of us with safe, reliable and (in the pacific northwest notably high) quality drinking water. Not to mention fantastic brewing water. Every time someone requests permission to add or expand a connection's capacity, greater demands are placed on the existing system capacity and infrastructure.

I wouldn't hold my breath hoping to get a waiver on charges but I would recommend three things. 
1. Invite a city water engineer to visit your site and talk about your plans. Again, while I doubt any fees would be waived I have seen instances where SDCs are phased in based on an average annual consumption agreement. As your production and consumption increases, you renew your agreement until the full SDC is met.
2. Consider adding a submeter that will capture your "production" water or more specifically, water that is not returned to the wastewater system.  These days many wastewater treatment agencies will provide a credit for volumes that you are able to demonstrate do not return to their system.  Most wastewater agencies will bill you for wastewater based on your winter average potable water consumption. You might be able to save a lot of money by deducting your production water that goes out the door as opposed to down the drain.
3. I bet you've already thought about it but just in case, try to capture and reuse your cooling water. Single pass cooling is a tremendously inefficient use of potable water. 
 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:11:27 AM by Pinski »
Steve Carper
Green Dragon Brew Crew
Clubs: Oregon Brew Crew & Strange Brew
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 12:51:04 PM »
Yeah, we need to add a bathroom for the tasting room, that's going to be ~$15k.

Oh, and if we want to install a new 1.5" water meter and line for dedicated water to the brewery, the city will charge us $50k for the privilege of doing so.  That's for permission to do it, to actually install it and run the line is more.  I don't know how much more because we won't be doing that.

I'm assuming the 50K is for the city's system development charge?  Doesn't make it any easier to swallow but it's more than simply granting permission. 
Do you actually need more capacity or could you achieve the desired result by submetering?
It is:
$18,220 "Connection Charge"
$30,925.75 "CWA includes 3% admin fee"

The CWA is a "Regional Water Connection Charge":
Regional Water Connection Charge (CWA): There is established a regional water connection charge which is imposed upon all owners of real property seeking to connect said property and improvements to the City water system.

I don't know if that's for more than permission, but to me that's the effect.

As for what we need, we could use a 1.5" line for sure.  But instead we're going to split off a smaller line after the meter, probably add a submeter (although we don't have to), and use a cold liquor tank for our on-demand supply.  It will fill as we go and should keep up pretty well, but it will keep us from being affected by water usage in other areas of the building.

Yes, it is very expensive to increase capacity or add new connections to municpal water systems.  It's also extremely expensive to operate and maintain the storage, treatment and distribution systems that provide most of us with safe, reliable and (in the pacific northwest notably high) quality drinking water. Not to mention fantastic brewing water. Every time someone requests permission to add or expand a connection's capacity, greater demands are placed on the existing system capacity and infrastructure.

I wouldn't hold my breath hoping to get a waiver on charges but I would recommend three things. 
1. Invite a city water engineer to visit your site and talk about your plans. Again, while I doubt any fees would be waived I have seen instances where SDCs are phased in based on an average annual consumption agreement. As your production and consumption increases, you renew your agreement until the full SDC is met.
2. Consider adding a submeter that will capture your "production" water or more specifically, water that is not returned to the wastewater system.  These days many wastewater treatment agencies will provide a credit for volumes that you are able to demonstrate do not return to their system.  Most wastewater agencies will bill you for wastewater based on your winter average potable water consumption. You might be able to save a lot of money by deducting your production water that goes out the door as opposed to down the drain.
3. I bet you've already thought about it but just in case, try to capture and reuse your cooling water. Single pass cooling is a tremendously inefficient use of potable water. 
 
1. We might do that for a future expansion, but for now we are sticking with a CLT and smaller pipe.  The same goes for trying to get the fees waived.

2. We will definitely add a submeter if they will credit us, that is still TBD.

3. This is certain.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 06:55:39 PM »
Tom,

CLT is the way to go.
Just size it appropriately.
If you have 1" water main, it can deliver fair amount of water.

Even with lager water main you would want to have CLT.
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 01:17:02 AM »
Tom,

CLT is the way to go.
Just size it appropriately.
If you have 1" water main, it can deliver fair amount of water.

Even with lager water main you would want to have CLT.
I think you're right.  Many breweries in the area start without them because our ground water is generally cold enough all year round.  But given the potential water supply issues, adding a CLT is a pretty good solution.  We have ordered a 30 bbl glycol jacketed CLT for our 15 bbl system, which I think is big enough.  Would you agree?  The HLT will be 45 bbls if the floor will support it.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 10:55:52 AM »
Generally I would agree.

it depends how are you going to brew on it.
If you would brew around the clock you would need bigg
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 11:00:38 AM »
I would agree.
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer

Offline jessup42

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2014, 06:15:06 PM »
Hopefully I will not have to deal with many of the listed reasons for huge increases in start-up.  After things get moving it may be a different story.  I will be occupying a building that's currently a wine bar, so many of the necessary items are already present.  There's even a floor drain in the brewing area!  Not saying the pitch is correct but it's a good start.  The place has a bar, double sink with dishwasher for glass ware, looks really nice in the "taproom" area and I have most all the equipment for the 2 bbl system.  Ramps for handicap access are present so compliance with the ADA looks good.  The only problem is there's no natural gas in the building so I'll have to continue using propane and brew just outside the garage door that's there.  Hopefully that isn't going to be a problem since with all the other costs going electric won't really be feasible.  At least I won't need an exhaust hood or any ventilation items.  The town is small and it seems like they really want a brewery to be able to tap into the huge craft beer market in Asheville.  Even the town Mayor who also works for the County said he'll do all he can to make sure all goes well.  Having the township on my side is a huge relief!!  The rest of the brewing community has also been a huge help with figuring out the costs for liability insurance, tax questions, TTB paperwork questions, and other logistics that have me scratching my head.  As long as I can get the Conditional Use Permit approved by the town committee for manufacturing alcohol I should be in good shape.

Do the plans and 2D CAD drawings need the raised seal by an engineer?  If so that will be a cost I didn't anticipate...

Offline a10t2

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2014, 07:11:13 PM »
The only problem is there's no natural gas in the building so I'll have to continue using propane and brew just outside the garage door that's there.  Hopefully that isn't going to be a problem since with all the other costs going electric won't really be feasible.

What are the other costs? Propane is massively more expensive than electricity. For a nano system, I wouldn't consider anything other than electric.

If you do go with propane, make sure your health codes will allow food production outdoors. What if it rains? You might want to at least figure out what a hood would cost to put in.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Doubling/Tripling your estimated start-up costs. Where?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2014, 04:37:54 AM »
Yeah, I'd highly recommend going electric. Why is it "out of the question?" I used two 5500 watt low density element for my 3 bbl brewery when I first got started. Only part that was a problem was clenaing the elements.
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