Author Topic: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils  (Read 1578 times)

Offline redzim

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2014, 01:07:49 PM »
Is the FWH IBUs calculated as a 20 minute addition?

Lot of IBUs there.

Yes...

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2014, 01:11:22 PM »
45+ IBUs in a 1.050 beer is a lot and could be a source for an imbalance.

FWIW, the German pils I made with the Jever profile is 1.052 and 47 IBU.  Doesn't seem overly bitter or harsh to me.  10 IBU from FWH, the rest at 60.
Haven't you previously said that you find FWH bittering to be smoother at the same IBUs than other additions?  Or do I remember it wrong?  I'm not talking about calculating it as a 20 min addition, I'm talking about the quality of the bitterness.  You have 8 IBUs more of FWH than he did, that could contribute.
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2014, 01:12:00 PM »

Is the FWH IBUs calculated as a 20 minute addition?

Lot of IBUs there.

This never made sense to me. Why wouldn't it be based on the length of the boil? Tell me it's 20 minutes worth of IBUs and I'll believe it, but I don't get why.
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Offline redzim

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2014, 01:13:36 PM »

But more likely, the bittering level is emphasizing the bitterness in the beer. 45+ IBUs in a 1.050 beer is a lot and could be a source for an imbalance. In addition, I see that you were emulating a Hockkurz mash schedule, but it seems that it was not very kurz (short). I'm afraid that the mash might have been made too fermentable and there may not be enough residual sweetness. Ultimately, there was a over an hour of mashing.

I got my timing for a Hochkurz from Kai's site, which shows a good 90 min maltose rest followed by 60min of protein.  I followed the various steps on this graph pretty closely.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction

Quote
Only 2.8 IBUs of FWH contribution? I assume that was a teeny hop addition.



Yes, only 0.75oz for a 10 gal batch.

Offline blatz

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2014, 01:17:53 PM »
Is the FWH IBUs calculated as a 20 minute addition?

Lot of IBUs there.

Yes...

not a popular opinion around here, but I find the calculation of FWH as a 20 min addition to be complete BS.

i make a LOT of lagers, and several of them get FWH only, or FWH plus a very small late boil addition.  for example, I did a dunkel about 6-8 weeks ago, and used only FWH of Mittlefruh, but calculated it as a 90 min boil addition plus 10%.  same goes for the vienna I did about a month later. 

both beers are completely spot on to where they should be, in terms of bitterness (both are still lagering but I have stolen some tastes here and there).  i like this as it gives me a more rounded bitterness that I find in classic examples.

that doesn't explain the difference between your previous brew of this same exact recipe and this time, although maybe the extra half hour does.



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Offline redzim

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2014, 01:20:08 PM »
Prima is around those stats - 44ibu/5.3% and while I love it, I could see it being described by some folks as harsh, too bitter etc. when described relative to say a bitburger, polestar, scrimshaw, etc.

I like my Pils hoppy, which is why I brew this one to get close to Jever (hands-down my fav Pils, both in Germany and when I can find it here)... it certainly blows Bitburger away with its hop level, but perhaps I just went overboard on everything a little (too long a mash, too many sulfates, a few too many hops) and it is all just adding up to more than I like....

I tried a little blending experiment this afternoon with canned Bitburger and at 25% Bit, it's passable, and at 50% Bit, it's fine.  I have a Helles ready in a few weeks and I may try a blend of that, although if the Helles is real good I won't want to use it up too quickly...

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas.

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2014, 01:29:44 PM »
Haven't you previously said that you find FWH bittering to be smoother at the same IBUs than other additions?  Or do I remember it wrong?  I'm not talking about calculating it as a 20 min addition, I'm talking about the quality of the bitterness.  You have 8 IBUs more of FWH than he did, that could contribute.

Yep, absolutely, Tom.  Measures as 10% more IBU, but it's so smooth it tastes like less.
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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 01:30:54 PM »

Is the FWH IBUs calculated as a 20 minute addition?

Lot of IBUs there.

This never made sense to me. Why wouldn't it be based on the length of the boil? Tell me it's 20 minutes worth of IBUs and I'll believe it, but I don't get why.

Because that's what it tastes like to me and a lot of others.  Chemical changes happens to the hops as they steep that affect the way the bitterness is perceived.
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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2014, 01:33:19 PM »

not a popular opinion around here, but I find the calculation of FWH as a 20 min addition to be complete BS.

Have you compared a FWH beer to a beer with the same amount as a 20 min. addition?
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 01:51:09 PM »

Is the FWH IBUs calculated as a 20 minute addition?

Lot of IBUs there.

This never made sense to me. Why wouldn't it be based on the length of the boil? Tell me it's 20 minutes worth of IBUs and I'll believe it, but I don't get why.

Because that's what it tastes like to me and a lot of others.  Chemical changes happens to the hops as they steep that affect the way the bitterness is perceived.

Do they measure as a 20 minute addition as well?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 01:54:36 PM »
The way I taste it is to lick the hydrometer sample after the reading. Pragmatic.



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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »
Do they measure as a 20 minute addition as well?

nope, they measure about 10% more IBU than the same amount as a 60 min. addition.  I don't know about you, but I'm more interested in how the beer tastes than how it measures.

Check this out, starting on pg. 29...

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
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Offline Steve in TX

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 02:41:23 PM »
Do they measure as a 20 minute addition as well?

nope, they measure about 10% more IBU than the same amount as a 60 min. addition.  I don't know about you, but I'm more interested in how the beer tastes than how it measures.

Check this out, starting on pg. 29...

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

Thanks Denny
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Offline blatz

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 02:45:57 PM »

not a popular opinion around here, but I find the calculation of FWH as a 20 min addition to be complete BS.

Have you compared a FWH beer to a beer with the same amount as a 20 min. addition?

No i have compared a dortmunder made with 60 min and 10 min hops to one with the 60 min addition used as FWH.  i preferred the FWH better.
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Offline stpug

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Re: troubleshoot my too-bitter North German Pils
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 02:49:05 PM »
I'm with blatz on the FWHing. To my tastebuds, a FWH comes across with almost the same bitterness as a 60 minute addition. Some beers I brew only have one hop addition, a single FWH addition, that balances the BU/GU ratio and they've come out tasting balanced for their style. I've actually brewed a denny recipe - waldo lake amber - with the cascade fwh calculated as a 20 minute addition and the beer came out much more bitter than I had expected/hoped/assumed. I rebrewed this again a couple months ago with the cascade added at 20 minutes, instead of fwh, and it was much more to my expectations. BUT, I also realize everyone experiences beer somewhat differently so it's no surprise that FWH don't work on me the same way they work on, say, Denny. That's cool. I guess it's one of those "try and see for yourself" things.