Author Topic: Consensus while judging?  (Read 2966 times)

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Consensus while judging?
« on: March 29, 2014, 09:11:28 PM »
For those who judge competitions, have you ever been on a flight where you could not come to a consensus with another judge?  I am not talking about adjusting a score up or down a few points.  I am talking about a score delta that is so large that the judges have to agree to disagree because no consensus score can be reached.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 09:13:38 PM by S. cerevisiae »
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Offline gmac

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 09:26:44 PM »
Yes, we brought in another judge from another table to break the tie. He was wrong too.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 03:51:41 AM »
Yes, this occurs when one or more bullheaded judges don't know what the hell they are talking about.  Happens a lot, unfortunately.  I am VERY much AGAINST competition organizers FORCING judges to compromise to come within a certain number of points of one another.  Why not allow each individual to speak for himself/herself!?  Taste and desire is a little subjective.  No one on Earth should be allowed to dictate to another person that what they perceive as desirable or undesirable is wrong.  Yes we have style guidelines for a reason.  No they are not perfect or all-encompassing.  And I am sorry, but I have seen Master judges make as many mistakes as Recognized judges.  We are all human and we should all be entitled to our own opinions.  Compromise drives me crazy.  Leave me alone to do my job the best way I know how based on my own experience, and let the entrant be the judge of the judges as to which one is on mark and which is on base (if any).
Dave

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 04:22:19 AM »
It must really be a hoot to organize one of these things.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 04:38:01 AM »
disagree on which should win a gold medal to the point that a third judge has to come in?  sure.

waaay apart on score and neither can convince the other to budge?  this is where I'd expect myself and the other know-it-alls to come in and do some educatin'....but I've never seen it happen.  Sometimes it has happened when a new judge didn't understand/didn't like the style but always they admitted their score was too low or high.


Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 04:51:28 AM »
So, the lowest is 13. The highest is 49. That's only 36 points between hell and nirvana. How can they not be within 7 points of each other given the narrow margin?

I guess I have a lot more to learn than I thought.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 05:02:36 AM »
I had a similar situation at a recent contest. I scored the beer at 41 and my judging partner scored it at 29...didn't like the hop character. I'm not one to say I'm infallible, so I did drop my score and they compromised a bit too. That beer was eventually pushed to mini BOS and won the category.

An important thing is to make sure that beers that might be good enough to push, get their chance to shine in another forum. When you have large contests with multiple flights, there is a greater chance that other palates will have the opportunity to judge it. The beers in question, just need the opportunity!
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Offline MDixon

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 05:02:04 AM »
I was judging ciders with a brand new guy who had zero experience. He thought everything was wonderful. In the real world he was correct, but we have guidelines. One one beer he refused to budge and I wasn't changing. For some reason I remember it as him being low and we were 10 points apart. I rejected his score entirely and awarded my score. Later in the flight he got with the program, but we did not revisit that cider. I cannot remember if it placed or not in the flight, but I did flip the score sheet and explain what happened to the entrant.

FWIW - I like to be within 3 points.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 05:22:55 AM »
Friday will be my first, if they need me. I'm looking forward to the learning experience.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 06:00:34 AM »
May the Force be with you, padawan learner!
Dave

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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 09:01:43 AM »
Here's the situation.  The delta between the scores was almost twenty points.  It was one of those beers that people either loved or hated (50% of the non-flight judges who tasted the beer loved it whereas the other fifty percent thought that it should be dumped).  I was going to give the beer a courtesy score of 13 before I saw the other judge's score sheet.  Our comments were so different that it made me believe that we must have tasted different beers.  I bumped my score up to 29, but there was no way that I was going to give a seriously flawed beer a forty.  The other judge would not budge.  The head judge was clearly uncomfortable judging the category.  He did not have an opinion one way or the other, so he adjusted his score up to move the beer on.   I finally reached the point were I told the head judge to throw out my score because there was no way that I was going to give the beer a score anywhere near forty. 


Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

"A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap."  - Graham Wheeler

Offline a10t2

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 10:25:48 AM »
I think the only fair thing to do in that situation is to bring in a third judge (or even a second pair of judges if they're available). Otherwise there's no real way to know if a flaw that one judge noted, or a positive element that one didn't, is truly there.

It definitely happens. I entered two beers in the NHC last year that - reading through the pencil erasing - had scoring deltas of 10 and 13. Clearly something was going on between those two judges that goes beyond a minor difference in perception. If one judge calls a beer too malty, and the other says it's too dry, changing the scores to bring them closer together doesn't do anything to get me valid feedback on the beer.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 10:56:30 AM »
As an entrant, I always treat the erased pencil marks as my true scores.  I sometimes wish that the judges wouldn't erase so hard so that I could actually read their original scores.
Dave

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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 11:23:32 AM »
Here's the situation.  The delta between the scores was almost twenty points.  It was one of those beers that people either loved or hated (50% of the non-flight judges who tasted the beer loved it whereas the other fifty percent thought that it should be dumped).  I was going to give the beer a courtesy score of 13 before I saw the other judge's score sheet.  Our comments were so different that it made me believe that we must have tasted different beers.  I bumped my score up to 29, but there was no way that I was going to give a seriously flawed beer a forty.  The other judge would not budge.  The head judge was clearly uncomfortable judging the category.  He did not have an opinion one way or the other, so he adjusted his score up to move the beer on.   I finally reached the point were I told the head judge to throw out my score because there was no way that I was going to give the beer a score anywhere near forty.

I'm seeing a lot of "loved it" and not "thought it fit the style really well"
I would like to believe that is not a problem BJCP judges have, but I'd settle for finding out it is rare.

perhaps you could give us a bit more on the style in question and what was so poor about it that made you consider a 13, and eventually 29?




Offline AmandaK

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Re: Consensus while judging?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 11:47:12 AM »
An important thing is to make sure that beers that might be good enough to push, get their chance to shine in another forum. When you have large contests with multiple flights, there is a greater chance that other palates will have the opportunity to judge it. The beers in question, just need the opportunity!

This is really the most important thing. Ensuring that a medal-worthy beer gets a chance at medaling is more important than worrying about scores.

Usually, if the guy I'm judging with cannot see eye-to-eye with me, I will come down on score with the caveat that the beer will be pushed to mini-BOS. I explain to them that the worst case for that situation is that if the beer is really as bad as they say it is (e.g. a 29 for 'subdued hop aroma' in an APA), then the beer will be kicked immediately. No harm, no foul. But if the beer was as good as I think it is, it should place in mini-BOS. I'm usually correct in pushing the "questionable" beer to mini-BOS (in that they usually medal at that point), but I've been wrong before and seen a beer I fought for get kicked quickly. Better to err on the safe side though!
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