Author Topic: Noob judge observations  (Read 3375 times)

Offline yso191

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2014, 08:46:26 PM »
You guys must live in generous scoring areas because scores of 40+ appear to be very rare in my area.   Judges around here are reticent to give a score above 35.  A score of 40 pretty much guarantees that a beer medals in BOS.  A 37 is a solid first place, and a 37 is a darn good beer that is almost perfect style-wise.
[/quote]

This is just weird to me.  "Almost perfect" to me would mean 45+.  I mean, if no one ever gives a mid 40 or above score, then it is not a 50 point scale, it's a 40 point scale.
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Offline theoman

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2014, 11:58:43 PM »
This thread serves as a reminder of why I don't enter competitions.

If I like it, it's good. If my wife likes it, it's awesome.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2014, 05:33:53 AM »
You guys must live in generous scoring areas because scores of 40+ appear to be very rare in my area.   Judges around here are reticent to give a score above 35.  A score of 40 pretty much guarantees that a beer medals in BOS.  A 37 is a solid first place, and a 37 is a darn good beer that is almost perfect style-wise.

This is just weird to me.  "Almost perfect" to me would mean 45+.  I mean, if no one ever gives a mid 40 or above score, then it is not a 50 point scale, it's a 40 point scale.
[/quote]

I hear ya. But I think of it this way. 50 would be a top beer in that style, fresh off the tap at the brewery, and their best run of that beer ever. Our 35 version was packaged and shipped and fumbled around, and still is only 15 points below it. Not bad really.

Offline darwin18

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2014, 05:51:23 AM »
I'm so proud that my random posts go 5 pages and end in an argument.

For what its worth, yeast, I saw about 35 beers judged. One was below 20 until I was talked into rasing my score. One was over 40.

You judged 35 different entries in one day or over two days?  Even over two days, that's over 17 beers in a day.  I know you're a newer judge, but most competitions should be striving to keep entries down to 10 - 12 per day (that's an am/pm session) to keep the feedback quality up and judge wear down low.  The checklist style score sheet helps, but not that much....
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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2014, 06:50:18 AM »
35 in a day over 3 flights is certainly more than ideal.  Over 2 days? - no biggie.

This First Round I did 11 pilsners, 8 English Browns one day and 8 Scottish/Irish, 7-8 English Pale, and 5 Straight mead the next.  I was tired, but I attribute that more to the crappy hotel bed and 6 hours of driving.

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2014, 06:54:18 AM »
You judged 35 different entries in one day or over two days?  Even over two days, that's over 17 beers in a day.  I know you're a newer judge, but most competitions should be striving to keep entries down to 10 - 12 per day (that's an am/pm session) to keep the feedback quality up and judge wear down low.  The checklist style score sheet helps, but not that much....

The competitions that I have worked have had that many entries per flight.   
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Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2014, 07:04:37 AM »
This is just weird to me.  "Almost perfect" to me would mean 45+.  I mean, if no one ever gives a mid 40 or above score, then it is not a 50 point scale, it's a 40 point scale.

From what I have experienced, the last ten points are reserved for beers that have the pixie dust treatment.  We are talking about beers that easily surpass commercial examples. 
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Separate the National Homebrew Conference from the National Homebrew Competition

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Offline darwin18

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2014, 07:13:49 AM »
You judged 35 different entries in one day or over two days?  Even over two days, that's over 17 beers in a day.  I know you're a newer judge, but most competitions should be striving to keep entries down to 10 - 12 per day (that's an am/pm session) to keep the feedback quality up and judge wear down low.  The checklist style score sheet helps, but not that much....

The competitions that I have worked have had that many entries per flight.

True, but they usually split a large flight between several groups of judges and then do a mini-BOS, correct?

As a judge, it usually takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to evaluate a beer, write up the score sheet (traditional not checklist style), and discuss the entry with the other judge.  This doesn't include the time that it takes to do a mini-BOS either.  I purposefully avoid competitions that treat judges like factory machines to pump out entries.  My point, since this is a thread about Noob judging experiences, was that most competitions don't ask their judges to do 19 entries in a single day like udubdawg did.  Quality feedback should be the priority at competitions, not blowing through large numbers of entries.  How did your hand feel afterwards? 



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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2014, 07:22:03 AM »
I dont recall precisely how many but 3 sessions of about a dozen each.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 07:22:26 AM »
You judged 35 different entries in one day or over two days?  Even over two days, that's over 17 beers in a day.  I know you're a newer judge, but most competitions should be striving to keep entries down to 10 - 12 per day (that's an am/pm session) to keep the feedback quality up and judge wear down low.  The checklist style score sheet helps, but not that much....

The competitions that I have worked have had that many entries per flight.

True, but they usually split a large flight between several groups of judges and then do a mini-BOS, correct?

As a judge, it usually takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to evaluate a beer, write up the score sheet (traditional not checklist style), and discuss the entry with the other judge.  This doesn't include the time that it takes to do a mini-BOS either.  I purposefully avoid competitions that treat judges like factory machines to pump out entries.  My point, since this is a thread about Noob judging experiences, was that most competitions don't ask their judges to do 19 entries in a single day like udubdawg did.  Quality feedback should be the priority at competitions, not blowing through large numbers of entries.  How did your hand feel afterwards?

3 hours of driving to KC did a lot more to make my arm sore than the writing.  I put comments on each checklist scoresheet too, though I did see some who did not.

FWIW, next to our table was a table of 12 Amber Lagers.  However they finished first because they had 2 teams doing 6 beers each, and the Dark Lager flight on Saturday also had 2 teams for 11 beers.  11 was not a normal flight length in this competition.  I haven't seen any other categories that asked that of judges.

I've done as many as 14 regular scoresheets in a flight.  Not fun.  In those cases I've pleaded with organizers to set up a third session, get more teams per category, and make the flights short.  breaks help a great deal.  judging 8, lunch, 8, break, 8 is easier than 12, lunch, 12.

Offline S. cerevisiae

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 07:30:53 AM »
True, but they usually split a large flight between several groups of judges and then do a mini-BOS, correct?

I judged 10 beers on the a.m flight and 9 beers on the p.m flight at the competition that I recently judged.  The only flights that were split were those that had 16+ entries.

Quote
My point, since this is a thread about Noob judging experiences, was that most competitions don't ask their judges to do 19 entries in a single day like udubdawg did.  Quality feedback should be the priority at competitions, not blowing through large numbers of entries.  How did your hand feel afterwards?

Nineteen or so entries between two flights appears to be norm in my area.   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:57:21 PM by S. cerevisiae »
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Separate the National Homebrew Conference from the National Homebrew Competition

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Offline epic1856

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 09:06:54 AM »
You judged 35 different entries in one day or over two days?  Even over two days, that's over 17 beers in a day.  I know you're a newer judge, but most competitions should be striving to keep entries down to 10 - 12 per day (that's an am/pm session) to keep the feedback quality up and judge wear down low.  The checklist style score sheet helps, but not that much....

The competitions that I have worked have had that many entries per flight.

True, but they usually split a large flight between several groups of judges and then do a mini-BOS, correct?

As a judge, it usually takes me about 10 - 15 minutes to evaluate a beer, write up the score sheet (traditional not checklist style), and discuss the entry with the other judge.  This doesn't include the time that it takes to do a mini-BOS either.  I purposefully avoid competitions that treat judges like factory machines to pump out entries.  My point, since this is a thread about Noob judging experiences, was that most competitions don't ask their judges to do 19 entries in a single day like udubdawg did.  Quality feedback should be the priority at competitions, not blowing through large numbers of entries.  How did your hand feel afterwards?

I felt like that once. I judged 17 beers for a Commercial Judging Competition. Of course this is the only competition that I know that pays it's judges. They sent out $50 checks to everyone that judged so no one really complains judging 15-20 beers.

Offline dixonmike20

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2014, 07:03:35 AM »
In recent years, I've started to view guideline differently. I used to brew to style and chase medals. Not anymore. Some of the best commercial beers are technically out of style in some way. Now, I value a score sheet if the judge detects a flaw (DMS, diacetyl, etc...). That can tell me to reevaluate my process. Otherwise, I make it my goal to brew a great tasting beer, regardless of style guidelines. I know I can brew classic styles. Now, I just tweek a classic style to my taste, BJCP be damned :). Of course that will hurt me sometimes in judging, but I'm ok with that. 


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Offline dkfick

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2014, 07:21:21 AM »
In recent years, I've started to view guideline differently. I used to brew to style and chase medals. Not anymore. Some of the best commercial beers are technically out of style in some way. Now, I value a score sheet if the judge detects a flaw (DMS, diacetyl, etc...). That can tell me to reevaluate my process. Otherwise, I make it my goal to brew a great tasting beer, regardless of style guidelines. I know I can brew classic styles. Now, I just tweek a classic style to my taste, BJCP be damned :). Of course that will hurt me sometimes in judging, but I'm ok with that. 


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I'm not sure I would bother entering a beer into a competition using the BJCP guidelines if it didn't meet those guidelines.  Seems like wasted effort to me.  Competitions that use the guidelines are exactly for those that are brewing to the style guidelines.  I just mean to say I'm not sure what value you would get out of it.  I assume if you brew often and have entered many competitions you have an understanding of off flavors.
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Offline phunhog

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Re: Noob judge observations
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2014, 07:30:28 AM »
In recent years, I've started to view guideline differently. I used to brew to style and chase medals. Not anymore. Some of the best commercial beers are technically out of style in some way. Now, I value a score sheet if the judge detects a flaw (DMS, diacetyl, etc...). That can tell me to reevaluate my process. Otherwise, I make it my goal to brew a great tasting beer, regardless of style guidelines. I know I can brew classic styles. Now, I just tweek a classic style to my taste, BJCP be damned :). Of course that will hurt me sometimes in judging, but I'm ok with that. 


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I agree.  I recently was lucky enough to have a Grand Master II judge three of my beers.  He really enjoyed two of them. But the best comment he wrote on all three score sheets was " No technical faults"  :)