Author Topic: Gusher Infection?  (Read 2220 times)

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3077
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2014, 07:20:25 AM »
And I used to use the oven to sanitize bottles too before I started kegging.  If I bottle now, it's usually with a Beer Gun.

How does the beer gun change your bottle sanitation procedures?
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6622
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2014, 07:34:06 AM »
And I used to use the oven to sanitize bottles too before I started kegging.  If I bottle now, it's usually with a Beer Gun.
[/quote

How does the beer gun change your bottle sanitation procedures?

It doesn't. Just that way back when I used to bottle batches I sanitized them all in the oven. Now , on the odd time that I bottle a few from the keg, the bottles get a good soak in Starsan , or sprayed thoroughly with it.
Jon H.

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3077
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2014, 07:46:01 AM »
And I used to use the oven to sanitize bottles too before I started kegging.  If I bottle now, it's usually with a Beer Gun.
[/quote

How does the beer gun change your bottle sanitation procedures?

It doesn't. Just that way back when I used to bottle batches I sanitized them all in the oven. Now , on the odd time that I bottle a few from the keg, the bottles get a good soak in Starsan , or sprayed thoroughly with it.

I was just being a d*ck.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6622
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2014, 07:50:36 AM »
And I used to use the oven to sanitize bottles too before I started kegging.  If I bottle now, it's usually with a Beer Gun.
[/quote

How does the beer gun change your bottle sanitation procedures?

It doesn't. Just that way back when I used to bottle batches I sanitized them all in the oven. Now , on the odd time that I bottle a few from the keg, the bottles get a good soak in Starsan , or sprayed thoroughly with it.

I was just being a d*ck.

All good  ;)
Jon H.

Online troybinso

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2014, 07:56:05 AM »
When you guys use the dishwasher, how can you be sure that the spray is getting up in to the bottles? It seems like that is a pretty small hole for the spray to get all the way up in to.

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3077
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2014, 08:20:52 AM »
I don't know about PBR, but back in the day Old Style was notorious for it's ability to "clean the system."

Old Pile, as it was affectionately known.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline fmader

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2014, 08:41:05 AM »
When you guys use the dishwasher, how can you be sure that the spray is getting up in to the bottles? It seems like that is a pretty small hole for the spray to get all the way up in to.

It has nothing to do with water. I'm not washing my bottles in the dishwasher. I wash them in the sink with oxiclean. It's all about the heat of the dishwasher. The heat sanitizes the bottles.
Frank

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 13954
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2014, 08:56:53 AM »
When you guys use the dishwasher, how can you be sure that the spray is getting up in to the bottles? It seems like that is a pretty small hole for the spray to get all the way up in to.

It has nothing to do with water. I'm not washing my bottles in the dishwasher. I wash them in the sink with oxiclean. It's all about the heat of the dishwasher. The heat sanitizes the bottles.

Be aware that heat sanitizing will shorten the reuse life of your bottles.  That may or may not matter to you.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline gmac

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2138
  • London, Ontario
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2014, 09:31:47 AM »
When you guys use the dishwasher, how can you be sure that the spray is getting up in to the bottles? It seems like that is a pretty small hole for the spray to get all the way up in to.

It has nothing to do with water. I'm not washing my bottles in the dishwasher. I wash them in the sink with oxiclean. It's all about the heat of the dishwasher. The heat sanitizes the bottles.

Be aware that heat sanitizing will shorten the reuse life of your bottles.  That may or may not matter to you.

They really get that hot?  I wouldn't have guessed that.  I do think that there is a big difference between the bottles used in the US and the ones used in Canada.  We've had beer bottle re-use by the big breweries for years, I'm unsure if the US does the same but I think our bottles are thicker and they seem thicker when I look at them in order to be re-used more frequently.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 13954
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2014, 09:33:27 AM »
They really get that hot?  I wouldn't have guessed that.  I do think that there is a big difference between the bottles used in the US and the ones used in Canada.  We've had beer bottle re-use by the big breweries for years, I'm unsure if the US does the same but I think our bottles are thicker and they seem thicker when I look at them in order to be re-used more frequently.

The theory is that the repeated heating and cooling induces stress fractures.  No personal experience, but that's what I've heard from people who do it.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4207
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2014, 11:46:48 AM »
They really get that hot?  I wouldn't have guessed that.  I do think that there is a big difference between the bottles used in the US and the ones used in Canada.  We've had beer bottle re-use by the big breweries for years, I'm unsure if the US does the same but I think our bottles are thicker and they seem thicker when I look at them in order to be re-used more frequently.

The theory is that the repeated heating and cooling induces stress fractures.  No personal experience, but that's what I've heard from people who do it.

Maybe that's more of an issue when using dry heat in an oven, where you generally use higher temps for a longer period of time. I'm thinking that if the "Sanitize" setting on dishwashers lead to weakened glass, there'd be some kind of cautions on the machine. It would just take one glass baby bottle breaking in some kids face for some serious law suits.

I have bottles that have been through at least a couple dozen sanitize cycles with no ill effect that I can see. The only bottles that I have trouble with occasional breaks are Sierra Nevada ones. I think that is just an issue of my wing capper not working well with them, since they just seems to snap/crush at the neck.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6622
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2014, 11:54:58 AM »
I don't remember breaking or cracking bottles more often when sanitizing in the oven than when I cleaned by soaking in sanitizer. But I used to buy cases of empty long neck returnable bottles from a liquor store, though. Those were definitely thicker than a lot of the bottles you see today, so I'm sure that helped.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 12:07:39 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline S. cerevisiae

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1634
  • deus ex machina
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2014, 12:29:24 PM »
It has nothing to do with water. I'm not washing my bottles in the dishwasher. I wash them in the sink with oxiclean. It's all about the heat of the dishwasher. The heat sanitizes the bottles.

More specifically, moist heat sanitizes the bottles.   Moist heat is a more efficient microbe killer than dry heat.  For example, it takes around ninety minutes to render lab glassware absolutely sterile at 350F/177C using dry heat.   However, lab glassware can be rendered absolutely sterile in fifteen minutes at 250F/121C using most heat.

By the way, OxyClean, like PBW is yet another cleaner that chemically resembles unscented automatic dishwasher detergent powder.

From the OxyClean MSDS (http://www.ahprofessional.com/_downloads/msds/MSDS-1605-OxiClean%20Versatile%20Stain%20Remover.pdf):

Sodium Carbonate  (alkalinity booster)
Sodium Percarbonate  (organic oxidizing agent)
Ethoxylated Alcohol C12 - C16 (surfactant)
Sodium Polycarboxylate (anti-redeposition agent)
Sodium Metasilicate (chelating agent)


Let's examine the list of ingredients that are in a box of unscented Cascade automatic dishwasher detergent powder (my comments are in parenthesis).

Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Sulfate (diluting agent)
Sodium Silicate (the umbrella name for the chemical compound known as sodium metasilicate)
Sodium Percarbonate
Modified polyacrylate  (anti-redeposition agent that belongs to the sodium polycarboxylate family)
Alcohol Alkoxylate  (surfactant)
Polyethylene glycol (processing aid)
Hydrozincite  (etching inhibitor)
Amine Cobalt Salt (bleach catalyst)
Protease Enzyme (this ingredient should be self-explanatory to any all-grain brewer)
Amylase Enzyme  (this ingredient should be self-explanatory to any all-grain brewer)

« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 12:32:20 PM by S. cerevisiae »
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

Friends don't let friends use Star San as their primary sanitizer

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

Offline brick pig

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
    • Brick Pig
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2014, 12:34:29 PM »
I rinse the bottles with tap water 4 or 5 times immediately after emptying them and then store them upside down in the same plastic crates I use to store the full bottles. On bottling day I visually inspect them and if I see anything that looks like it needs to be scrubbed, I do so with plain water and a bottle brush. Then I send them through the dishwasher, no soap, on the "sanitize" setting.

I have been doing this for very nearly twenty years, and have had a grand total of exactly 1 gusher in all that time. Also, except for three or four that I've replaced because they accidentally got mixed in with recycling, I'm using the same six cases of bottles I got when I first started brewing. If the heat from the dishwasher is hurting them, it is taking an awfully long time to do so.

Offline gymrat

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 885
  • Ralph's Brewery
    • View Profile
Re: Gusher Infection?
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2014, 06:51:04 PM »
I think it is ok to drink it..just be sure to get it poured before it gets out of the bottle and makes a mess.
Ralph's Brewery
Topeka, KS