Author Topic: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts  (Read 1280 times)

musseldoc

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Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« on: April 15, 2014, 05:44:23 PM »
I have always heard to make a great german lager, you need to use german malts, hops, yeast and water and also  use a german process.  Typically, a 20-30 minute protein rest is standard in german brewing, and as I read "Altbier" from the BA series Dornbusch states that one of the most critical steps for a truly genuine Alt is the protein rest.  I scanned the sides of my bags of weyermann malts to get their batch analysis sheets, and all of them (pils, boh pils, floor malted boy pils, vienna and munich) all have a kolbach index ranging from 41.1-42.0.  Additionally, their % protein range from 10.0-10.2.  I understand that if the Kolbach is over 38 or if the protein is under 12%, that you should never do a protein rest. 

I guess my question is, how do I brew a great german lager or alt with these german malts if they are not suitable for protein rests?  Are german malts the exception to the kolbach rule of thumb, or have the german companies designed their malts to be used with single infusion mashes?  Is there still any way to get that thick german head on a beer with process and without simply loading it up with carapils?

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 05:59:49 PM »
IMHO I would not take that "true german rule" too seriously. If I did a protein rest it would be a real breif one.

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 06:16:37 PM »
That book was written a long time ago.  Malts have changed a lot since then.
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musseldoc

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 06:36:36 PM »
Then what do you do to get that thick, creamy, long lasting foam now that German malts are highly modified? 


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Offline denny

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 06:42:21 PM »
Then what do you do to get that thick, creamy, long lasting foam now that German malts are highly modified? 


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Mash and ferment them correctly...

http://byo.com/stories/item/693-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques

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musseldoc

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2014, 06:59:41 PM »
If you can't do protein rest, then what do you mean by 'mash correctly'?


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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2014, 08:09:50 PM »
If you can't do protein rest, then what do you mean by 'mash correctly'?


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check out the link Denny posted. it's enlightening. I don't do protein rests and don't use carapils (which is dubious as a foam aid at any rate) or wheat most of the time and have very little issue getting good foam. IN fact, protein rests are more likely to reduce your foam as they break down the protein needed to form the fabulous foam (say that ten times with marbles in your mouth and you'll never need a dentist again).

seriously though, read that BYO article. one of the things it mentions is a simple test to find out what your problem actually is (assuming you only have the one). shake up a sample and pour it into a tall narrow glass. if a head forms and disapears it's not lack of protein that's your problem. could be too high a fermentation temp or a variety of other causes. if no head forms then worry about the protein.
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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 04:20:54 AM »
Listen to Denny. That book is great as far as history of alt goes and it gives you an idea into recipe formulation but it is based on outdated mashing techniques used on under modified malt. And even if some German breweries still perform the step mash, that doesn't mean you have to perform it to get the same results (and I think the argument can be made that if there are breweries using step mashes they aren't using the same malts that we get imported from Germany). Step mashes could potentially also cause problems in your finished beer. Since malts are so much better modified today, a step mash might actually destroy some of the proteins that cause your beer to have good head retention.
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Offline rabeb25

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 06:18:45 AM »
Thats funny I started to reply to this post, and it felt like I already had done this before.. so I searched and found this:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12545.30

and a picture of a Marzen for reference  8)


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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 07:29:05 AM »
If you can't do protein rest, then what do you mean by 'mash correctly'?


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Well, for one thing, not doing a protein rest!
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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 08:36:57 AM »
Thats funny I started to reply to this post, and it felt like I already had done this before.. so I searched and found this:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12545.30

and a picture of a Marzen for reference  8)



Ah, that was a good thread.

So, would a Hochkurz step mash potentially ruin head retention? I do a rest in the mid 140s for 20-30 minutes, then step up to the mid to upper 150s for 30-45 minutes, then pull a thin decoction to mash out. Not a protein rest, but Keith mentioned step mashes as well.
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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2014, 08:41:01 AM »
So, would a Hochkurz step mash potentially ruin head retention? I do a rest in the mid 140s for 20-30 minutes, then step up to the mid to upper 150s for 30-45 minutes, then pull a thin decoction to mash out. Not a protein rest, but Keith mentioned step mashes as well.

I don't know how much good that schedule is doing you, but I don't see any harm in it.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 08:43:31 AM »
It gets me a couple extra gravity points, but perhaps you're right. A 90 minute rest at 148-150 might be just as good?
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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2014, 08:51:34 AM »
Thats funny I started to reply to this post, and it felt like I already had done this before.. so I searched and found this:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12545.30

and a picture of a Marzen for reference  8)



Ah, that was a good thread.

So, would a Hochkurz step mash potentially ruin head retention? I do a rest in the mid 140s for 20-30 minutes, then step up to the mid to upper 150s for 30-45 minutes, then pull a thin decoction to mash out. Not a protein rest, but Keith mentioned step mashes as well.

The Hochkurz step mash at the bottom on Kai's page below has no Protein rest, and a longer dextrin rest. The long dextrin rest is said to aid mouthfeel and head retention.

Edit - the link.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing
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Offline rabeb25

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Re: Kolbach of Weyermann Malts
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2014, 08:59:56 AM »
I don't know, but I may have to disagree with that. I have done the standard 150 rest and the Hockurtz, and I can tell a difference. I find the 150 leaves a lack of malt in the middle, compared to the Hockurtz. Trust me if I didn't tell a difference I wouldn't be doing it.. it adds an hour onto my brewday.
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