Author Topic: Motueka Pacifica Ale  (Read 760 times)

Offline Kinetic

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Motueka Pacifica Ale
« on: May 10, 2014, 12:54:02 PM »
Approximately an 8 gallon boil and 6 gallons fermented.

11 lbs. Optic - 79%
8 oz.  British Crystal 60L - 3.6%
8 oz.  British Crystal 150L - 3.6%
1.5 lbs. raw cane sugar  - 10.8%

enough Acid malt to produce a mash pH of 5.28
mash water - Ca(97) Mg(10) Na(44) Cl(72) SO4(198) HCO (9)

0.50 oz.  Summit @ 60 - 22.5 ibu
2.0 oz. Motueka @ 20 - 23.8 ibu
1.0 oz. Pacifica @ 15 - 7.7 ibu
1.0 oz. Motueka @ 10 - 7.1 ibu
1.0 oz. Pacifica @ 5 - 3.1 ibu

WY1098 - 1.5L stir plate starter - 60-62F ambient - no internal temp control
2.0 oz Medium toast oak cubes - (primary 2 weeks)

Cold crashed for 4 days.  Transferred to secondary and dry hopped for 7 days:

2.0 oz.  Pacifica
1.0 oz.  Motueka
CO2 headspace infusion

OG - 1.067
FG - 1.010
abv - 7.4%
ibu - 64.2
srm - 12.4L

Motueka is lemon/lime with a mild resinous character.  Pacifica is sweet orange peel with a bit of spice and floral.  Hoping to get some coconut from the wood, but the early sample didn't have it.  However, it did have a nice oakey note that was pleasant.

Say anything you want.  I like criticism.  The beer is still dry hopping. 

I doubt it conforms to a BJCP style.  If it does, which one?  I'll probably call it a Double New Zealander ESB.   

« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 01:49:48 PM by Kinetic »

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 04:33:35 PM »
The new guy's recipe feedback gets a big



 :'(

Online HoosierBrew

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 04:52:27 PM »
Nice picture !  ;D   Sorry for the slow response. I think aside from the hop schedule you're more in British IPA territory - a BU:GU of near 1 and the somewhat high OG takes you out of ESB range. And I also think it sounds good !
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 04:54:16 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2014, 04:56:02 PM »
I've never used Optic, Pacifica, or Motueka.  But the Summit should be thrown in the trash immediately. ;D

Do you normally oak in primary?  I haven't tried that.
Tom Schmidlin

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2014, 04:58:45 PM »
Yeah, except for the Summit. I overlooked that. Not at all a fan.
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 06:33:25 PM »
Thanks for the replies Gents.  I feel much better now.  I really do.  I'll address all of your posts in one long winded post. 

I think I lack the appropriate hops, ABV and mineral content to qualify for a BJCP British IPA.  It will be a cold day in Hell before I add Burton on Trent style mineral salts to my beer.  The "Burton Snatch" is something I experienced a long time ago in England and vowed never to brew a beer that had it.  However, Ska's Modus Hoperandi claims to use Burton on Trent minerals and that beer is a salty, yet sulphur free IPA I enjoy, but it doesn't have the proper Burton Snatch and uses C-hops, which renders it an unauthentic ale in a similar regard to mine based on uber-stringent classification.  Wut?

Do I normally oak in the primary?  Well, I'm not really a creature of habit and have oaked in the primary and secondary for various lengths of time.  All of them produced woody notes that weren't the same.  All of them were enjoyable in different ways. Two weeks with medium toasted cubes in the primary has produced some good results, but not the same type of flavor one could get from aging several months in a barrel or several months in a plastic bucket with cubes.  Longer aging with cubes seems to draw out the vanilla and coconut.  Shorter aging with cubes regardless of vessel seems to taste more woody.  Regardless of method and without science to verify my claims, I've been happy with using various toasts of 2oz. of cubes for as little as two weeks to as much as three months in a 5-6 gallon batch.

Regarding Summit.  Well, Summit "earned" a bad reputation in the past 10 years via internet chatter and early versions of Oskar Blues Gubna.  However, my experience with Summit has been contrary to popular opinion.  In this recipe, I only used Summit as a bittering hop.  It does that well and doesn't ruin any beer as a bittering hop. The bitterness it provides as a bittering hop is smooth, but not underwhelming. 

The magic of Summit can be experienced by a single 20 minute addition of 20-40ibu.  It's a tangerine bomb.  Not orange.  Sweet juicy tangerine.  Try it with other citrus hops that make you happy.  The onion and garlic notes are the result of using Summit too late in the boil or dry hop.  It's a flavor hop and a bittering hop.  If you use it mid boil or sooner, there will be no onions or garlic. 

I think hop growers are aware of the onion/garlic thing.  Using a copper particulate compound in the fields and proper harvesting time seems to reduce the unsavory qualities of scallion prone hops.  Try Summit one more time.  Mid boil.  Tangerine!

Thank you for saying something about my recipe.  I like to talk about beer.  Sorry for the long winded and potentially sanctimonious drunk post.

Cheers!

Offline yso191

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 07:52:49 PM »
Interesting.  Tangerine.  I'm thinking an APA sporting tangerine flavor would be awesome.  What yeast do you recommend to help bring the flavor out?  Also curious if you find fermentation temperature is significant.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 07:56:19 PM by yso191 »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2014, 08:34:33 PM »
And here's my own rambling response to your rambling response (and initial post which I meant to reply to at the time, but got busy at work. Damn work, always getting in the way of beer...)

A) Haven't gotten around to trying Pacifica yet, but orange peel with spice and floral notes would certainly work well in hoppy British styles. I think citrus is ok, as long as it isn't that sharp white grapefruit note that is the hallmark of the C hops.

B) That means Motueka doesn't instantly put it out of style, either. It's definitely citrus, but more of a lime/lemongrass thing. It's also comparatively low oil, and it quickly fades into the background when paired with a more assertive hop.

C) I really want to like Summit. That tangerine flavor/aroma is truly remarkable. I just can't get past the onion/garlic/asiago savory thing. Maybe I'll test out your mid-boil suggestion in a pilot batch somewhere down the line. It's not that I don't believe you, but even a small amount of that character ruins a beer for me. When I'm using a pound of hops in 3 gallons of IPA, I don't want to roll the dice on whether to include Summit and risk the whole batch. The savory character is just that bad to me. The tangerine is also most potent in the aroma, so if it doesn't work as a dry hop that also kind of kills a lot of the attraction for me.

D) Burton Snatch is certainly not required in an EIPA as I read the BJCP guidelines. As a matter of fact, while it may be allowable, I doubt anyone would consider it desirable. Of course, I am pretty sensitive to sulfur, and I can start to smell a hint of it starting in the 250-300PPM range for sulfate. YMMV

E) Thanks for sharing your observations on oak. Some of that seems to line up with an interesting point made at last year's NHC during the talk on wood-aged beers. The speaker mentions that the "woody" flavor seems to peak around 2 weeks in, but then starts to mellow and let other character develop. He found that around 6 weeks (IIRC) was the time frame where he got the best results from most wood varieties. I often hear brewers say that as early as 4-5 days after adding oak it could start to get too strong. I've wondered if maybe they just haven't left their beer on the oak long enough. I haven't really played around with oak, so this is mainly conjecture on my point, but your insight definitely has me wanting to do a bit of experimentation.

F) Beer Recipe posts don't generally see as much traffic as some of the other boards (especially on the weekends), unless there is some glaring problem with your recipe. Don't take it personally if you don't get a big response. If you don't get much of a response, I think it's safe to assume that most of us think it's a solid recipe that doesn't need much intervention.

Cheers, and good to see you jumping in on the boards here!
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 11:49:18 AM »
Interesting.  Tangerine.  I'm thinking an APA sporting tangerine flavor would be awesome.  What yeast do you recommend to help bring the flavor out?  Also curious if you find fermentation temperature is significant.

I think every time I've used Summit for flavor it has been with s-05 yeast and a simple malt bill with not more than 5% caramel in an APA or IPA.  FG in the 1.008-1.012 range.  SRM in the 6-8 range. Fermented in the low 60s.  Typically used it with other citrusy hops and the tangerine was always noticeable.     

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 12:18:33 PM »
And here's my own rambling response to your rambling response (and initial post which I meant to reply to at the time, but got busy at work. Damn work, always getting in the way of beer...)

A) Haven't gotten around to trying Pacifica yet, but orange peel with spice and floral notes would certainly work well in hoppy British styles. I think citrus is ok, as long as it isn't that sharp white grapefruit note that is the hallmark of the C hops.

B) That means Motueka doesn't instantly put it out of style, either. It's definitely citrus, but more of a lime/lemongrass thing. It's also comparatively low oil, and it quickly fades into the background when paired with a more assertive hop.

C) I really want to like Summit. That tangerine flavor/aroma is truly remarkable. I just can't get past the onion/garlic/asiago savory thing. Maybe I'll test out your mid-boil suggestion in a pilot batch somewhere down the line. It's not that I don't believe you, but even a small amount of that character ruins a beer for me. When I'm using a pound of hops in 3 gallons of IPA, I don't want to roll the dice on whether to include Summit and risk the whole batch. The savory character is just that bad to me. The tangerine is also most potent in the aroma, so if it doesn't work as a dry hop that also kind of kills a lot of the attraction for me.

D) Burton Snatch is certainly not required in an EIPA as I read the BJCP guidelines. As a matter of fact, while it may be allowable, I doubt anyone would consider it desirable. Of course, I am pretty sensitive to sulfur, and I can start to smell a hint of it starting in the 250-300PPM range for sulfate. YMMV

E) Thanks for sharing your observations on oak. Some of that seems to line up with an interesting point made at last year's NHC during the talk on wood-aged beers. The speaker mentions that the "woody" flavor seems to peak around 2 weeks in, but then starts to mellow and let other character develop. He found that around 6 weeks (IIRC) was the time frame where he got the best results from most wood varieties. I often hear brewers say that as early as 4-5 days after adding oak it could start to get too strong. I've wondered if maybe they just haven't left their beer on the oak long enough. I haven't really played around with oak, so this is mainly conjecture on my point, but your insight definitely has me wanting to do a bit of experimentation.

F) Beer Recipe posts don't generally see as much traffic as some of the other boards (especially on the weekends), unless there is some glaring problem with your recipe. Don't take it personally if you don't get a big response. If you don't get much of a response, I think it's safe to assume that most of us think it's a solid recipe that doesn't need much intervention.

Cheers, and good to see you jumping in on the boards here!

A.  Pacifica is milder than the C-hops.  No grapefruit.  Soft bitterness. 

B.  Agree.

C.  I can't stand onion or garlic notes from hops either.  I smell and taste them in pro beers frequently.  One 20 minute addition of Summit never produced anything but tangerine for me.

D.  I really just wanted to say Burton snatch. ;)  Maybe it is a British IPA.  Although, it is 7.4% which is probably beyond the limits of the style.  Brewing to style isn't a priority for me, but sometimes it happens. 

E.  I use oak cubes in a few beers per year.  2oz. works for me, but I could see how using 1oz. might be a better place to start.  I boil the cubes in water for 15 minutes to reduce some of the tannins and that produces a smoother result than not boiling them first.  If I soak them in booze, I still boil them first.  The first time I tried cubes, I didn't boil them and the beer was too woody harsh, but it smoothed out after about three months in the bottle.   

F.  Thanks.  I don't take anything personally on the internet.  I just figured someone would be more likely to say something if I posted a can of crickets.

I'll give an update on how this beer finished in a month or so. 

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2014, 01:35:30 PM »
I bottled this today.  I was a little worried about the wood because it's a hoppy and semi-dry beer and my previous wood beers were sweeter stouts or non hopped sours.

I sampled the the freshly mixed bottling bucket and the wood wasn't too much for me, but it was obviously woody.  The last 8oz. of dregs that didn't get bottled was too woody and tannic. 

Some of the tiny burnt wood particles settled to the bottom of the bucket during the bottling process which was: transfer to bottling bucket, sample, wait 15 minutes while preparing priming solution, stir in priming sugar, wait 5 minutes and bottle.

Some coconut was present in the aroma at this stage that wasn't present after fermentation.  Yay! Overall, the aroma was nice.  Lime, sweet orange, cinnamon, toffee, floral, oak and mild coconut.  Hurry up and carbonate!         

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Motueka Pacifica Ale
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2014, 12:30:59 PM »
I've had a few of these recently.  I'm enjoying a few working at home today.  2.5 weeks in the bottle.  Chilled for a couple days. 

Overall, I'm pleased with the result.  The finished beer has many of the attributes mentioned in the previous posts, but it isn't the same beer.  There is no coconut from the wood.  Maybe I tried too hard to find what I was hoping to get. :(

However, the medium toast oak cubes produced good flavor and aroma.  The flavor and aroma of the wood isn't huge at first.  After having a few, it makes its presence known.  The same can be said for the rest of the flavors and aromas.  They aren't super impressive with the first glass.  By the second or third glass, all of them become tangible.  None of the flavors trump the others.  I suppose balanced is a good description.

The only new flavors since it carbed are some pineapple and the wood tastes different.  It has a light smoked wood flavor and a savory/umami aftertaste which is long and pleasant after a few.  Not harsh at all.  The aroma of the wood is substantial when the glass is nearly empty and not obvious when the glass is full.