Author Topic: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel  (Read 667 times)

Offline brewsumore

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Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« on: May 26, 2014, 10:18:18 PM »
Here is the recipe I used, which sticks very close to Tomme's recipe in "Brew Like a Monk", and brewing notes including my approach to adding raisins, Tomme's "secret ingredient" in the recipe, based on research as well as other member posts, plus basic creativity given ingredients on hand.

I decided to leave it as an 11-gallon batch recipe, since the ingredients fall into easy amounts at this size, again, while still remaining true to the published recipe.

I have brewed this a couple times before using WY 1214.  This time I split the batch into two fermenters, one using WY1214 (Chimay), the other using WY3787 (Westmalle).  I shoulda, coulda, woulda kicked it up a wee notch on ferment temps, but as done it still yielded two tasty beers.

Tomme Arthur's Dubbel

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------


Batch Size (Gal):        11.00    Wort Size (Gal):  11.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       29.45
Anticipated OG:          1.070    Plato:            17.15
Anticipated SRM:          19.9
Anticipated IBU:          15.6
Brewhouse Efficiency:       70 %
Wort Boil Time:            110    Minutes

Actual OG:  1.071   Plato: 17.28
Actual FG:  1.013   Plato:  3.32

Alc by Weight:  6.00      by Volume:  7.68  From Measured Gravities.
ADF:            80.8      RDF         67.4  Apparent & Real Degree of Fermentation.

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 77 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 60.3    17.75 lbs. Pilsener                      Germany        1.038      2
  8.5     2.50 lbs. Wheat Malt                    Belgium        1.038      3
  6.8     2.00 lbs. Belgian Dark Candi Syrup D2   Belgium        1.032     80
  6.8     2.00 lbs. Aromatic Malt                 Belgium        1.036     17
  4.1     1.20 lbs. Munich Malt                   Belgium        1.038      6
  3.4     1.00 lbs. Biscuit Malt                  Belgium        1.035     19
  3.4     1.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt               Belgium        1.033     60
  3.4     1.00 lbs. Honey Malt                    Canada         1.030     17
  3.4     1.00 lbs. Special B Malt                Belgian        1.030    148

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.90 oz.    Styrian Goldings                  Pellet   5.50  11.1  90 min. 
0.60 oz.    Liberty                           Pellet   3.74   4.6  60 min.
 


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  9.00 Oz     Raisins (dark)                 Fruit      7 Min.(boil)
  1.25 Tsp    Wyeast Yeast Nutrient          Other     12 Min.(boil)
  1.50 Unit(s)Whirfloc                       Fining     7 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

Wyeast 1214 Belgian Abbey Yeast (one fermenter)

Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity (other fermenter)


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step
Heat Type: Direct

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.60

Saccharification Rest Temp: 152  Time:  70
Sparge Temp:                168  Time:  10



Efficiency Specifics
--------------------
Recipe Efficiency Setting: 70%
Actual Mash System Efficiency: 77%


Fermentation Specifics
----------------------
Days In Primary:      15
Pitched at 64F
Due to minimal fermenter headspace because of higher than expected wort yield,
to minimize blow-off, I maintained 67F first 3 days, and then ramped up
to 72F over next 6 days.  I recommend going hotter than that!
Held at 72F for another 6 days until reached terminal gravity.


Fermentation Notes
------------------

Probably best to keep fermenting beer below 75F during the first 72 hrs of ferment to avoid fusels,
and best to use extra headspace in fermenter and anti-foam drops.  But beware of boring beer
when maintaining low ferment temps, unless you like your Belgians really "clean".
Subsequent temps of I'd guess 74F and above yield more ester/phenol character and balance. 

I separated the two fermenters after about 24 hrs to dial-in temps to accomodate the
different yeasts.

Used Fermcap to reduce blow-off, but still got a fair amount with the 1214 (Chimay).

With the 3787 (Westmalle) be careful as it can permanently stall held below 66F and/or
due to temp controlling with a big/low swing.

I kegged a little early following a 15-day ferment; could have left in primary ~65F
following reaching terminal gravity for an additional 2 weeks to better clean up wort
and drop yeast.  But I needed my ferment chamber for another brew!


Other Notes
-----------

Raisin Caramelize and Puree:  In large hot metal frying pan started them (9
 oz fresh dark Sun Maids)  with my delicious well-aged cherry port, and then
added 1 cup wort, and finished with more port, using entire split.  Determined
it would have been better to start caramelization with wort, since the port
evaporated very quickly at the high heat.  The raisins
caramelized well with the wort addition and then more port at med high - high,
but be very careful not to let them burn.  Added to blender and needed
about 4 - 5 oz brandy (I used E&J VSOP) to provide enough liquid to puree.
I pureed very well, knowing that I would later be running wort through a
strainer when transferring to fermenters.  Added puree to kettle immediately
after stirring in D2, last 7 minutes of the boil. 
Almost no puree was strained out at transfer to fermenters.


Tasting Notes

-------------
At kegging, both were full of flavor, but lacking a little of phenols and esters due to
the too cool ferment.
The 1214 was a bit fruitier and expressive.

Tonight sampling a glass from the 2 liters extra blended beer (mostly from the Westmalle batch)
carbonated with Carbonator Cap, it is a tad sweet, no off flavors, with dried fruit, alcohol,
caramel.  Very nice, if a little lacking in the "Belgian-y" character.  Very nice body and mouthfeel.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 10:35:44 PM by brewsumore »

Offline majorvices

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 05:15:31 AM »
Reading your fermentation notes, I definitely don't think you need tp go any warmer than 72 on either of those strains. I use 1214 a lot and I start it off at 64 for 2 or 3 days before raising temp to 68. That is where I find the best temp range for that strain. Too high and you get TONS pf unwanted banana esters.

I've also used a fair share of 3787 and never had it stall. Ever. I follow a similar fermentation schedule as with the 1214. Keeping those strains on the cool end will give you better balanced flavors.
Keith Y.

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 05:33:29 AM »
+1.  Both of those strains can be banana bombs if you ferment too warm. The first time I used 1214 I pitched and fermented it @ around 75F (dumb idea) and it actually smelled and tasted like I put bananas in the mash. Not good.
Jon H.

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 07:37:34 AM »
Interesting.  Thanks for the feedback!  I researched on the Web some and saw that a majoriy of folks fermented on the cool side similar to what I followed.  I'll have to check my notes when home, as I recall that I have fermented the 1214 or White Labs equivalent considerably hotter with good results.

At any rate, I'll just assume that given time that my beers, especially the 3787 batch, will satisfy my yearning for Belgian-y complexity, although I've read that just isn't going to happen with 3787, as it is a bit bland in comparison to other Abbey or Trappist yeasts.

At any rate, you've removed the feelings of guilt, and the beer is actually very tasty.  I don't pick out the cherry notes from using cherry port in the puree, which is fine with me, but I believe that it still contributed a background flavor addition.

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 07:42:17 AM »
For the life of me, I don't know why I calculated so low of a brewhouse efficiency, at 70%.  My actual at 77% is much more along the lines of what I've been getting for =/+ 1.065 beers up to at least 1.075.  This one was calculated at 1.070, and I hit 1.071 qnd got around an extra gallon yield of wort.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 07:49:02 AM by brewsumore »

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 08:35:17 AM »
Underpitching (less than Mr Malty recommends) can produce more esters with those yeasts.  I use about 25%-35% less yeast and get plenty of esters.  Fusels have only been a problem when starting the fermentation too warm.

Offline denny

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 08:46:43 AM »
Underpitching (less than Mr Malty recommends) can produce more esters with those yeasts.  I use about 25%-35% less yeast and get plenty of esters.  Fusels have only been a problem when starting the fermentation too warm.

Well, maybe....there's also another school of thought, voice by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand and Neva Parker of White Labs, that underpitching will reduce esters. 
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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 10:38:27 AM »
Underpitching (less than Mr Malty recommends) can produce more esters with those yeasts.  I use about 25%-35% less yeast and get plenty of esters.  Fusels have only been a problem when starting the fermentation too warm.

Well, maybe....there's also another school of thought, voice by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand and Neva Parker of White Labs, that underpitching will reduce esters.

In my experience, I do feel like I get more phenolics from an underpitch on weissbiers and Belgians. I haven't noticed more esters. And honestly, it could just be changing my impression of the ester/phenolic balance by lowering the amount of esters produced.

In my opinion, it's much easier to dial in your fermentation temps first before you start messing with pitching rate. But pitch rate is something worth experimenting with once you feel like you have a particular strain dialed in on your system.
Eric B.

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Offline denny

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 11:51:54 AM »
In my experience, I do feel like I get more phenolics from an underpitch on weissbiers and Belgians. I haven't noticed more esters. And honestly, it could just be changing my impression of the ester/phenolic balance by lowering the amount of esters produced.

In my opinion, it's much easier to dial in your fermentation temps first before you start messing with pitching rate. But pitch rate is something worth experimenting with once you feel like you have a particular strain dialed in on your system.

Supposedly, there are a few strains that respond like that to underpitching.  But as you say, it's a kind of dicey way to control ester production.  IMO, yeast strain selection and temperature are better.
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 12:13:23 PM »
Underpitching (less than Mr Malty recommends) can produce more esters with those yeasts.  I use about 25%-35% less yeast and get plenty of esters.  Fusels have only been a problem when starting the fermentation too warm.

Well, maybe....there's also another school of thought, voice by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand and Neva Parker of White Labs, that underpitching will reduce esters.


From Wyeast-

A low pitch rate can lead to:

Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm

Offline brewsumore

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 12:18:01 PM »
FWIW, I pitched both fermenters right in line with Mr. Malty recommendations.

Offline denny

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 01:18:33 PM »
Underpitching (less than Mr Malty recommends) can produce more esters with those yeasts.  I use about 25%-35% less yeast and get plenty of esters.  Fusels have only been a problem when starting the fermentation too warm.

Well, maybe....there's also another school of thought, voice by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand and Neva Parker of White Labs, that underpitching will reduce esters.


From Wyeast-

A low pitch rate can lead to:

Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm

Yes, I'm familiar with that.  I know the Wyeast people pretty well.  But there's another school of thought that has a lot of validity.  Read this for the other viewpoint...http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth .  And take a look in the NHC  archives at Neva Parker's 2012 NHC presentation.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:20:42 PM by denny »
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Tomme Arthur's Dubbel
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 05:36:56 PM »
I read Dr. L's post.  He doesn't sell Chimay or Westmalle yeast.  As he said, ester production is dependant on several variables.  One of the most important variables is the yeast strain. 

I have over pitched, under pitched and Mr Malty pitched with 1214 and 3787 and get the best ester results from a 25% underpitch when the other variables are consistent.

Did Neva analyze either of those yeasts and determine otherwise?