Author Topic: Ninkasi  (Read 1080 times)

Offline udubdawg

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
Ninkasi
« on: June 16, 2014, 12:30:12 PM »
**let me put this first:  No sour grapes.  The right guy won.  But let's imagine for a minute that he did not win that Bronze medal.  Imagine instead we had 23 brewers each with one Gold Medal.  OK?

here are the "official rules"

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/competitions/national-homebrew-competition/rules-and-regulations/
here are the Ninkasi tiebreakers at the link:
There will only be one Ninkasi Award winner. In the event of a tie for the most points in the Final Round, the following tie-breaker criteria will apply.
a. The number of medals earned in the Final Round will be tallied, and the brewer with the most medals will be declared the winner. If a tie still exists,
b. The number of Gold medals earned in the Final Round will be tallied, and the brewer with the most Gold medals will be declared the winner. In case a tie still exists,
c. The number of entries qualifying for the Final Round will be tallied for each tying brewer, and the brewer with the fewest entries in the Final Round will be declared the winner. In case a tie still exists,
d. Points will be calculated for tying brewers’ entries that placed in the First Round of the NHC based on the same scale as used in the Final Round. The brewer with the most points in the First Round will be declared the winner. If a tie still exists,
e. The number of entries qualifying for the Final Round will be tallied for each tying brewer, and the brewer with the most entries placing in the First Round will be declared the winner. In case a tie still exists,
f. The total number of entries registered for the First Round of the competition will be tallied for each tying brewer, and the brewer with the fewest registered entries will be declared the winner. If a tie still exists,
g. The winner will be selected using a random selection method. A random method such as rock-paper-scissors, steel cage death match, or a coin flip will be applied at the discretion of the competition organizers to determine the winner.
*****************************************************

*sigh* - despite being told multiple times, "c" and "e" are still the opposite of each other.  "e" needs to be deleted.
Furthermore, I think "c" makes little sense in a competition with severe entry limits.  The 23 gold medalists this year advanced 1, 2, or 3 to the Finals.  "a" and "b" are pretty outdated too.

Here are the rankings of the top 23, using tiebreakers a thru d.  Assuming the redundant "e" is deleted, if Voeltz had not won that second medal, we'd have a 6-way tie for first place, and would need to figure out who had the "fewest 1st round entries".  Considering everyone had 1,2,3 or 4, another tie is possible.  The idea that we'll never get to the coin flip is simply false in these days of entry limits.

place   Brewer   Final Points   Final Medals   Gold Medals   # advancing   1st rd points
1   Voeltz   8   2   1   3   10
2   Boeke   6   1   1   1   6
2   Fish   6   1   1   1   6
2   Gladue   6   1   1   1   6
2   Hilferding   6   1   1   1   6
2   Sapp   6   1   1   1   6
2   Shibiya   6   1   1   1   6
8   Barry   6   1   1   1   4
9   Collins   6   1   1   1   2
9   Rawks   6   1   1   1   2
11   Reinholdt   6   1   1   2   12
12   Carter   6   1   1   2   10
12   Hixson   6   1   1   2   10
12   Linder   6   1   1   2   10
12   Reuter   6   1   1   2   10
16   Gutierrez   6   1   1   2   8
16   Kampshoff   6   1   1   2   8
16   Marvin   6   1   1   2   8
16   Rodammer   6   1   1   2   8
20   Schmitt   6   1   1   2   6
20   Vrabel   6   1   1   2   6
22   Wilcox   6   1   1   3   16
23   McNair   6   1   1   3   14

(I'll format it later.  basically we've got 6 guys with one gold medal, blue ribbon beer, that was the only thing they advanced to the Finals, and one tiebreaker left before the coin flip)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:09:34 PM by udubdawg »

Offline Jimmy K

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3630
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 01:02:26 PM »
Thanks for putting that together. I've suspected since this year's rules came out that the entry limits would make most of the tiebreaker rules almost worthless. This shows that.
 
I think first round points should be the first tiebreaker. It stays true to the spirit of the award - most medals in the competition.
 
Rules b and c also seem ineffective. First award points for the most medals with equivalent points (ie- 4 bronze beats 1 gold and 1 bronze). Then turn around and say most gold medals wins. At that point they're probably all tied anyway since you've weeded out contestants with more gold medals.
Delmarva United Homebrewers - President by inverse coup - former president ousted himself.
AHA Member since 2006
BJCP Certified: B0958

Offline kramerog

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 01:16:43 PM »

I think first round points should be the first tiebreaker. It stays true to the spirit of the award - most medals in the competition.
 

Agree on the first round tiebreaker. 

A second or lower tie breaker could be to weigh the points for medals with a weight based on the number of first round entries for the category.
Brewers of South Suburbia
Brixie's Brewers
Oak Park Homebrewers

Offline james

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2014, 04:17:17 PM »
It just seems like Ninkasi needs to be eliminated or replaced with something else.  I really thought this year that the person that won was going to only have 1 entry max and win gold in both rounds

Edit: I imagine this feedback should really go to someone on the governing committee

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6412
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2014, 04:56:49 PM »
You and Larry Reuter would have won if you had put the silver in you name. Donna was listed first on the IPA silver.

I always am listed first for our beers, as that is the reality - numbers, process, heavy lifting are my domain.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline udubdawg

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 05:17:42 PM »
You and Larry Reuter would have won if you had put the silver in you name. Donna was listed first on the IPA silver.

I always am listed first for our beers, as that is the reality - numbers, process, heavy lifting are my domain.

that's a misunderstanding people have come to a lot.
I got a gold, for one of my 4 entries.
Cole got a Silver, with me as the co-brewer, for his only entry.
(another guy got 1 of 2 in the finals, but no medals, with me as a co-brewer).
2 medals out of 7 entries with me somewhere on there.  Not 2 under my AHA number.

so Cole+Michael and Michael are separate teams and separate point totals, as it should be.

as for the Reuters, if they are a husband/wife duo who each entered 2, with the other as their cobrewer, then they deserve Ninkasi.  If they used the fact that they've got two AHA numbers to get 5-8 entries, up to 4 each with the spouse as each others' co-brewer, then they're in the same basic situation as Cole and I, and it's two different teams.

Offline Tim Thomssen

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 05:54:02 PM »
I have to agree that the Ninkasi award has become obsolete in the current era of low entry limits.  Not taking anything away from the winner, still a huge accomplishment, just not the same as in years past.

Now I believe the place to look for an open field national championship is MCAB.

By the way, congratulations on the Gold Michael, well done!

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6412
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 06:38:50 PM »
You and Larry Reuter would have won if you had put the silver in you name. Donna was listed first on the IPA silver.

I always am listed first for our beers, as that is the reality - numbers, process, heavy lifting are my domain.

that's a misunderstanding people have come to a lot.
I got a gold, for one of my 4 entries.
Cole got a Silver, with me as the co-brewer, for his only entry.
(another guy got 1 of 2 in the finals, but no medals, with me as a co-brewer).
2 medals out of 7 entries with me somewhere on there.  Not 2 under my AHA number.

so Cole+Michael and Michael are separate teams and separate point totals, as it should be.

as for the Reuters, if they are a husband/wife duo who each entered 2, with the other as their cobrewer, then they deserve Ninkasi.  If they used the fact that they've got two AHA numbers to get 5-8 entries, up to 4 each with the spouse as each others' co-brewer, then they're in the same basic situation as Cole and I, and it's two different teams.

I see the nuances of the Ninkasi now, thanks for that insight.

At Zanesville I judged with Larry and was very glad to see them medal in the 2nd round.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline braufessor

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 08:14:29 PM »

here are the "official rules"

c. The number of entries qualifying for the Final Round will be tallied for each tying brewer, and the brewer with the fewest entries in the Final Round will be declared the winner. In case a tie still exists,


This is the one I do not understand - at all.

Brewer A and B Tie with 2 medals and = Points.

Brewer A and B both entered 4 beers originally in regionals.

Brewer A advances 4 beers to the finals.  Brewer B only manages to get 2 beers through the regional. 

Brewer A LOSES because they were good enough to advance all 4 beers, and Brewer B WINS because they brewed 2 beers not good enough to get out of regionals?  How does that make sense?  It is a SINGLE competition with 2 rounds - perhaps if Brewer B only entered 2 in regionals, I could understand that they medaled 100% of their entries...... But having beers not make it to the finals should not be a "benefit."

With limited entries, I think you almost have to start looking at first round points (maybe half the value as second round points) in determining a Ninkasi winner. 


Offline brewinhard

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 752
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 05:48:32 AM »
I agree with taking value in the number and places of the first round medals as a proper way of tie breaking.  Just my 2 cents.  It really does help to determine the better and more consistent brewers. 

Offline santoch

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • North Bend, WA
    • View Profile
    • WAHA
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 01:34:51 PM »
The saddest thing about the limits is that we had so many sites that didn't even come close to capacity.
Mt. Si Brewing Society
Washington Homebrewer's Association (WAHA)
BJCP Grand Master II Judge

Offline jvoeltz

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 11:19:12 PM »
They really outta add the beer BOS as the first tie breaker....that would eliminate a lot of the noise....

Offline klickitat jim

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5267
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 11:46:27 PM »
I think the first tie breaker ought to be AHA Forum post count :-\

Welcome to the forum mr focus of our envy.

Offline dsmitch19

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
    • ASH
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2014, 10:50:56 AM »
Jeremy is a big poster over at Homebrewtalk...he has over 41,000 posts there. ;)
Cheers!
Dennis Mitchell
BJCP Master Judge + Mead Judge
Arizona Society of Homebrewers Board Member at Large

Offline klickitat jim

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5267
    • View Profile
Re: Ninkasi
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 11:00:27 AM »
Those don't count, do they?