Author Topic: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?  (Read 984 times)

Offline BrodyR

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Philadelphia, PA
    • View Profile
Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« on: June 24, 2014, 07:47:43 PM »
I'm ironing out a new recipe for the summer. With no AC in Philly I'm going to try out the Danstar Belle Saison yeast since it can handle temps up to 90f. The rest is as follows:

Grain:

2.0# Pilsner
2.0# Vienna
1.5# Wheat Malt
0.5# Flaked Oats (for Body/Mouthful so it doesn't taste watery)

Hops:

20m: .5 oz of Citra
5m:   .5 oz of Citra & .5 oz of Amarillo
170f Steep: 1 oz Citra & 1.5 oz Amarillo
Dry Hop: 2 oz each of Citra & Amarillo

I'm shooting for a session beer that has characteristics of a farmhouse & an IPA but I'm not sure it will cleanly fit any style. I want a boat load of citrusy hop aroma & flavor combined with the spiciness of the yeast. I've also been toying with the idea of throwing in some mango puree in the secondary.

OG: 1.041
FG: 1.010
ABV: 4%
IBU: 26.5
Batch: 4.25 gallons
Boil: 90m

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7241
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2014, 08:52:34 PM »
looks good. you could leave the oats out if you wanted. raw/flaked oats can sometimes lend a plasticy note to a beer and if you mash really high you won't need them. with this style you want the body to be a little thinner and make up for that with higher carbonation. If you mash at 158 or even 162 with the belle saison you'll still end up with enough attenuation to make the beer light and drinkable but have plenty of body left so people will assume it's a bigger beer.

Offline troybinso

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2014, 09:06:11 PM »
That is a lot of hops for a beer that small. I think you might be overdoing it a little, but you did say that you wanted a boat load, so I guess that is what you are going for. Definitely mash very high - around 160 if you want to get any body out of a beer this low in gravity with a very high attenuating yeast.

Never used that yeast, but I have made a lot of saisons and 90 degrees is really pushing the upper end. I guess I would suggest to pitch the yeast at the lowest temp possible you can manage - low to mid 60's would be great, and let it rise to the temp that you can manage.

Offline BrodyR

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Philadelphia, PA
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2014, 09:38:07 PM »
I'm also considering leaving out the oats and doing 2# of wheat. I've just been hankering to try brewing with them more since Tired Hands keeps brewing amazing beers of a variety of styles loaded with oats. I could see a high carbonation and thinner body working well with this tho.

Yea 90f is definitely at the upper end, it's been ranging from 80-90 on my ground floor depending on the week so I figured I'd try to get into the seasonal brewing spirit and work with it. Also there's a brewery nearby that ferments a Saison at 90 and it comes out pretty good so I figured it wouldn't hurt.

Offline kylekohlmorgen

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1334
  • Saint Louis, MO
    • View Profile
    • The South House Pilot Brewery
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 09:12:13 AM »
That is a lot of hops for a beer that small. I think you might be overdoing it a little...

Blasphemy!

I will say that you may end up with an overly bitter beer at ~30IBUs with such a low starting (and probably finishing) gravity. Even with mash temps at 160F, you'll probably still finish under 1.010. Try moving all your hops to the last 15 min of the boil. If you want a 15 min addition, use the lower-alpha Amarillo. Shoot for 20-25 IBUs.

Saison yeasts may ferment out more quickly when temp is raised UP TO 90F, but you still need to pitch at a lower temp (75F max, 68F is ideal) then raise the temp towards the end of fermentation.

If 80F-90F is the coolest you have (no basement, crawlspace, etc.), you can cool the wort down to 65F, pitch yeast, and wrap it in a blanket to insulate. You could also try keeping cold towels on it for the first day or so before letting it rip.

Side note: 80-90F is perfect for culturing lacto. If you're forced to live in that heat, a berliner, gose, or tart saison would be other refreshing options for you.
Twitter/Instagram: @southhousebrew

Recipes, Brett/Bacteria Experiments: http://SouthHouseBeer.com/

Offline chezteth

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 422
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 10:33:19 AM »
I used the Belle Saison yeast last year and the FG was 1.000. It started at 1.044. I mashed at 152 so mashing at 160 should help keep the FG higher. I think your recipe looks & sounds good.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Offline BrodyR

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Philadelphia, PA
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 10:46:23 AM »
Kyle - Hmm, that's a good idea looking into some Lacto brews. I've yet to mess around with that or Brett. How long would you want to keep it cool? If I cooled to 65f and it was a relatively cool evening it would probably take a good day or 2 to get up to approach 90f (ambient temp is 88f as I type). I should take a reading in the basement. It stinks horribly of mildew down there but I suppose with everything sealed up it should be ok.

Chezteth - 1.000 wow! Super dry. I'm hoping I have a bit of residual sugars to balance out the low abc (although it wouldn't be quite as low if it totally fermented out). 

Online HoosierBrew

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5569
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 10:54:03 AM »


Chezteth - 1.000 wow! Super dry. I'm hoping I have a bit of residual sugars to balance out the low abc (although it wouldn't be quite as low if it totally fermented out). 

You'd be surprised how much body is left in a 1.000FG saison where you used 3711 - surprisingly so. And Belle is IIRC the dry version of that.
Jon H.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 11:03:12 AM »
I think you're going to get some nasty headaches fermenting in the 80s.  Get it down to 70s if at all possible.  When I make saison, I start fermentation about 68 F and then raise to around 74 F maximum.  Not exactly sure what will happen in the 80s, but I'm fairly certain you will get a lot of fusels, even with a saison yeast.

Also I agree with troybinso, that's way too much friggin hops.  Tone it down a tad?  Citra is extremely overpowering anyway in very small amounts.  You won't be able to taste the saison or any mango additions behind that amount of Citra.  But, it's your beer.  I'm just suggesting that saison is a tasty style by itself, and moderation and balance are keys to good beer IMHO.  Do what you like, it's your beer.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline kylekohlmorgen

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1334
  • Saint Louis, MO
    • View Profile
    • The South House Pilot Brewery
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2014, 12:24:12 PM »
How long would you want to keep it cool?...

As long as you can...

Mildewy basement is no big deal - I would start fermentation down there. Hell, at 80F+, I would sleep down there.

Cool the wort down to 65F and pitch (preferably before taking the fermentor downstairs). When you start to get a lot of airlock activity, move it upstairs (probably high krausen, but no need to open up and peek).

If this method produces undesirable alcohol/phenol flavors, try a swamp cooler or wet t-shirt for cooling (Google search should give plenty of instructions).

I usually suggest investing in fermentation temp control (dorm room fridge & controller), but I would pick up a window AC unit first.

And ice. And beer. Lots of both.
Twitter/Instagram: @southhousebrew

Recipes, Brett/Bacteria Experiments: http://SouthHouseBeer.com/

Offline BrodyR

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Philadelphia, PA
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2014, 07:38:44 PM »
Current temps are 80f in the basement and 90f upstairs so I suppose the move is to either chill it then let it warm up to 80f in the cellar or just empty out the kegerator and ferment it in there in the 70s.

I think if I do the Mango, which I'm leaning to, I'll knock the hops down to 4 or 5oz. My initial goal was to have a bit of that hop-bomb fruity session IPA character.

Any thoughts on splitting the pale malt between pilsner & vienna or just doing 100% of one or the other?

Also, I've been thinking about the comment on the Lacto - I've never worked with it before but usually you throw it in in the secondary and let it sit for a while in heat? Think that would work well adding some tartness?


Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 04:41:13 AM »
Splitting between pilsner and Vienna Maltese seems good.  If anything do NOT reduce the percentage of pilsner malt at all.

Tartness does not taste good in heavily hopped beers IMHO.  You will get tartness from mango if you use that so I would not Lacto this beer.  Keep it simple or you may regret it!
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1661
    • View Profile
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 07:43:41 AM »
I think you're going to get some nasty headaches fermenting in the 80s.  Get it down to 70s if at all possible.  When I make saison, I start fermentation about 68 F and then raise to around 74 F maximum.  Not exactly sure what will happen in the 80s, but I'm fairly certain you will get a lot of fusels, even with a saison yeast.

No fusels with saison yeast. I typically ferment saisons around 85-90.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing but I'm also a lawyer: The Kielich Law Firm

Offline kmccaf

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
  • Kyle (Champaign, IL)
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2014, 10:14:02 AM »
I think you're going to get some nasty headaches fermenting in the 80s.  Get it down to 70s if at all possible.  When I make saison, I start fermentation about 68 F and then raise to around 74 F maximum.  Not exactly sure what will happen in the 80s, but I'm fairly certain you will get a lot of fusels, even with a saison yeast.

No fusels with saison yeast. I typically ferment saisons around 85-90.

Glad to hear that! I'm currently doing my first saison above 80 this week.
So it goes.

Offline redbeerman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1800
  • On the banks of the mighty Susquehanna in MD
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on a hoppy, blonde, farmhouse-ish session brew?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 12:01:47 PM »
I think you're going to get some nasty headaches fermenting in the 80s.  Get it down to 70s if at all possible.  When I make saison, I start fermentation about 68 F and then raise to around 74 F maximum.  Not exactly sure what will happen in the 80s, but I'm fairly certain you will get a lot of fusels, even with a saison yeast.

No fusels with saison yeast. I typically ferment saisons around 85-90.

I start at 65 and finish at 85-90 using WLP565.  So +1  I get a superb beer using that fermentation schedule.  Dry and spicy.
CH3CH2OH - Without it, life itself would be impossible.

[441, 112.1deg] AR

Jim