Author Topic: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue  (Read 1657 times)

Offline jbakajust1

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • End Of Silence Brewing: Let the Beer Speak!
    • View Profile
    • End of Silence Brewing
Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« on: June 25, 2014, 01:00:22 PM »
Just wondering what others think about the authors numerous references to "Traditional Saison Yeasts" not being able to adequately ferment a Saison on their own.  First off, if the style is defined, as he states, by a high attenuation and very low FG, how is it that the "Traditional Saison Yeasts" (Dupont, Blaugies, Fantome, etc) which set the style aren't able to sufficiently ferment the wort?  I mean, if these are the traditional Saisons that set and defined the style that we as brewers are trying to emulate or at least take inspiration from, and we are using these brewery's own yeast strains to ferment our beers, how is that not sufficient? 

Personally I have used the Dupont strain 3 times, and have finished at 1.005 or lower.  I have used the Blaugies (3726) 3 times and had it finish once below 1.007, once at 1.004, and once at 1.011 (had caramel malts in that recipe and higher mash temp).  I have had the Fantome finish under 1.008 with a 160*F mash.  Not sure how he came up with this idea (that he asserts as though it is objective truth) that all these "Traditional Saison Yeasts" need the assistance of 3711 or Brett or an American strain to finish that low.  I get the added complexity of blends, I have blended Blaugies and Fantome and had it finish at 1.003, then finished it with multiple Brett strains, but stating that they have to be blended to finish is simply wrong.  He states that they have an app att in the low to mid 70s, I have personally had much higher than that, as have  other homebrewers.  I remember an experiment that another brewer did with the Dupont strain: 1.060 OG, 150*F 60 minute mash, all Pils, no sugar, fermented in mid to high 60*Fs for 6 weeks, 1.000 FG.

What are you thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 03:23:56 PM by jbakajust1 »
Justin Bruce
Cascade Brewers Society

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2014, 01:21:17 PM »
I pretty much ignored that part of the article.

I would assume that he would be pitching a first generation of the Dupont strains without proper aeration or pitching rates, which will lead to a stuck fermentation around 1.030. Using a second generation pitch from a friend clears that right up for me.
Amanda Burkemper
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP Master

Redbird Brewhouse - Finishing Touches on the Basement Bar

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »
PS: my last 565/3724 combo went from 1.054 to 1.004 in 7 days. 7 days! Temp from 64 to 80.
Amanda Burkemper
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP Master

Redbird Brewhouse - Finishing Touches on the Basement Bar

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1314
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2014, 01:27:00 PM »
I was disappointed that the author didn't include the Belle Saison dry yeast in the mix. In my review of that dry yeast, it is not really a saison yeast. However, it is a nice light yeast with mild character. I think it would be great in a BPA.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 02:18:01 PM »
I guess Belle Saison yeast is not a "traditional" saison yeast!?!  I got my saison down to 1.002 with no trouble at all with the Belle Saison.  I think it is a fantastic saison yeast, finishes low but doesn't taste nearly that dry, with a beautiful peppery spiciness and slight lemony flavor.  I will probably never use any other saison yeast because that one is perfection.  Oh, and uh, I sprinkled it directly on top of the wort, no second generation or rehydration or starter required.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline jbakajust1

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • End Of Silence Brewing: Let the Beer Speak!
    • View Profile
    • End of Silence Brewing
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 02:28:06 PM »
I pretty much ignored that part of the article.

I practically will ignore it too, but I would hope that the editors at Zymurgy would have read that article before publishing, and even though the author makes great Saisons, tell him that his statements just aren't true and that they need changes before they publish them.  I think of all the wonderful Saisons out there that Zymurgy readers would've made with the great "Traditional Saison Yeasts" but now they won't because they take his declarations as truth.  Maybe the editors could've said that it needed to be reworded so as not to sound so pedantic, maybe something like, "In my experience with these yeasts they don't finish as low as I want as quick as I want so I blend for a faster turn around".  I can totally understand the need for a brewery that makes nothing but Saisons to blend yeast for a faster turn around, but to state that they just won't finish low enough is wrong.

Justin Bruce
Cascade Brewers Society

Offline duboman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1119
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 04:22:33 PM »
I thought this odd as well since I've used several of the strains mentioned with no attenuation issues either.
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline dannyjed

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
  • Toledo, OH
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 04:32:28 PM »
I guess Belle Saison yeast is not a "traditional" saison yeast!?!  I got my saison down to 1.002 with no trouble at all with the Belle Saison.  I think it is a fantastic saison yeast, finishes low but doesn't taste nearly that dry, with a beautiful peppery spiciness and slight lemony flavor.  I will probably never use any other saison yeast because that one is perfection.  Oh, and uh, I sprinkled it directly on top of the wort, no second generation or rehydration or starter required.
good to know because I just used this for the first time a couple of days ago
Dan Chisholm

Online HoosierBrew

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5160
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 04:49:20 PM »
There was always a myth about 3724 and it needing to take 3 weeks to get to completion, because of the famous "stall". Well Wyeast now recommends fermenting it @ 90F to avoid the stall, which goes against all fermentation wisdom. But I tried it, half expecting a fusel-ly beer, and got a great beer. 1.002 FG in ~ 9 days. There is speculation that many saison strains are more similar to wine strains than beer strains, and could possibly explain why 3724 performs optimally at temps which could ruin most any beer. Many red wines, for example, are fermented at warm temps.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Having said that, I've made several saisons using 3724 cooler until visible fermentation stops, and then pitching some 3711 to finish up, and had nice results. So the argument that the 'classic' strains take longer as a rule is inaccurate to me.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 04:52:30 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline brewinhard

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2014, 04:58:36 PM »
I have always found that it takes WY 3724 a bit to get acclimated to my brewing environment, and then after that it rips right through even my high gravity worts in sufficient time (under 2 wks).  The first pitch can take upwards of 6 wks alone even with high ferment temps (controlled), but after that it will be ready to rock any wort you throw at it.  Just what I have observed and of course YMMV.....

Offline klickitat jim

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4261
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2014, 05:31:23 PM »
I would not expect the Zymurgy folks to fact check. Besides, it makes great letters to editor fodder. Write them about it.

Offline AmandaK

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2014, 05:37:11 PM »
I would not expect the Zymurgy folks to fact check. Besides, it makes great letters to editor fodder. Write them about it.
I would not expect them to fact check either. When I was in the Gadgets Issue, both my location and club were wrong. YMMV.
Amanda Burkemper
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP Master

Redbird Brewhouse - Finishing Touches on the Basement Bar

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1314
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2014, 05:38:20 PM »
Dave, I'm with you on the fact that Belle Saison is a great attenuator and it still leaves a hint of sweetness. My last batch finished at 0.998 after pushing the temperature to 80F. My problem with this yeast is that it is too clean and lacks earthyness that I prefer. With that said, I did perform the primary fermentation period at around 70F and the wort OG was a bit high for a Saison. So I might have altered the character a bit with those components.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline dmtaylor

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2014, 07:03:41 PM »
You are right, Martin, it is not earthy or musty as one might expect of the style.  Matter of personal preference.

By the way.... for those counting the days, my saison takes about 3.5 weeks to hit final gravity at 74 F.  Heating it up after the first 4 days or so should speed things up in theory.  But I am a little scared of fusels.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline klickitat jim

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4261
    • View Profile
Re: Saison Article in July/Aug 2014 Issue
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2014, 08:47:03 PM »
I would not expect the Zymurgy folks to fact check. Besides, it makes great letters to editor fodder. Write them about it.
I would not expect them to fact check either. When I was in the Gadgets Issue, both my location and club were wrong. YMMV.

Well, I was in the gadget issue too. And they never once checked on whether or not my wife actually did yoga