Author Topic: Batch Sparge Water Temp  (Read 2403 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 08:25:32 AM »
Decoctions also have a high gravity level. Somewhere I read that also helps to minimize tannin extraction.

Even with adjusted pH sparge water you need to watch the gravity of the runnings, and stop in the 3 or 4 Plato range. If you go too low you can still get astringency - taste those last runnings. I know this from experience.

What you're referring to is gravity as an indicator of pH.  The way I see it is that with higher gravity, the grain retains more buffering ability.
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2014, 12:48:11 PM »
The decoction doesn't extract tannins, therefore a hot sparge won't extract tannins theory is debunked.

From BYO:

Decoction mashing extracts more tannins than an infusion mash. Along with gelating the starch, boiling the mash extracts husk compounds, including polyphenols (tannins). The level of tannin extraction, however, is fairly low and some maintain that this low level actually benefits the flavor of the beer. If a low, pleasing amount of tannin extraction is a piece of “decoction mash character,” then simply adding Munich or melanoidin malt would not capture that character exactly.

Homebrewers used to infusion mashing may wonder how a decoction could be boiled without extracting a large amount of tannins and yielding a very astringent beer. After all, when lautering, they are repeatedly told that their grain bed temperature should never exceed 170 °C (77 °C). The key to understanding this apparent discrepancy is understanding when tannins are soluble in wort. Increased heat and increased pH both favor tannin extraction. At lower pH values, such as those found in a thick mash, tannin extraction from grain husks is minimal even at boiling temperatures. At higher pH values — such as those in a grain bed that has been extensively sparged — excess tannin extraction occurs at a much lower temperature.

https://byo.com/stories/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques

Your quote supports the argument that pH is key and that decoction doesn't extract an unpleasent (fault level) amount of tannins. so not so much debunked as clarified. It's all about flavor thresholds.

My point was one can not draw conclusions about sparging based on decocoction.  They are different processes with different variables.  I have no problem believing a hotter sparge at the right pH can produce unobjectionable results.

Offline denny

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2014, 01:40:06 PM »
My point was one can not draw conclusions about sparging based on decocoction.  They are different processes with different variables.  I have no problem believing a hotter sparge at the right pH can produce unobjectionable results.

But isn't it basically the same process?  Heating the grains above what's usually considered a "safe" temp?  How hot would you say you need to be to get tannins even with a "safe" pH?  I've accidentally sparged with water in excess of 200F and didn't get objectionable tannins.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2014, 03:45:53 PM »

My point was one can not draw conclusions about sparging based on decocoction.  They are different processes with different variables.  I have no problem believing a hotter sparge at the right pH can produce unobjectionable results.

But isn't it basically the same process?  Heating the grains above what's usually considered a "safe" temp?  How hot would you say you need to be to get tannins even with a "safe" pH?  I've accidentally sparged with water in excess of 200F and didn't get objectionable tannins.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2014, 07:15:02 PM »
Decoctions also have a high gravity level. Somewhere I read that also helps to minimize tannin extraction.

Even with adjusted pH sparge water you need to watch the gravity of the runnings, and stop in the 3 or 4 Plato range. If you go too low you can still get astringency - taste those last runnings. I know this from experience.

What you're referring to is gravity as an indicator of pH.  The way I see it is that with higher gravity, the grain retains more buffering ability.

But the sparge water is adjusted to, 5.5 with acid, and it has been RO for years.
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2014, 02:09:26 PM »
I over heated my sparge water to 192F this past weekend.  I cursed, then I decided to sparge anyway because Denny claims it won't make an objectionable beer if the sparge pH is right.

I sure hope Denny didn't ruin my beer. Time will tell. Wish me luck. :)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2014, 02:14:40 PM »
I over heated my sparge water to 192F this past weekend.  I cursed, then I decided to sparge anyway because Denny claims it won't make an objectionable beer if the sparge pH is right.

I sure hope Denny didn't ruin my beer. Time will tell. Wish me luck. :)

If your pH was good you'll be fine ;).  I've made a lot of beer batch sparged that hot. You'll have to post your final impression.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 02:14:58 PM »
I over heated my sparge water to 192F this past weekend.  I cursed, then I decided to sparge anyway because Denny claims it won't make an objectionable beer if the sparge pH is right.

I sure hope Denny didn't ruin my beer. Time will tell. Wish me luck. :)

Well, I did sneak in and dump some PBR into it, just for chumley....
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Offline Kinetic

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 02:21:50 PM »
I may have to cut the batch with 50% PBR just to soften the tannins. 

 

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 03:03:47 PM »
I may have to cut the batch with 50% PBR just to soften the tannins. 

 

............then dry hop the hell out of it to cover up the PBR !      ;D
Jon H.

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 03:22:24 PM »
PBR won a medal at GABF this year.  I think it has won several medals over the years.  It can't be that bad, but I don't plan on buying it to find out.  Light lagers aren't something I enjoy much.

Offline ajk

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 03:27:45 PM »
It ain't called "Blue Ribbon" for nothing! I know it's a better American Lager than I can make.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2014, 03:29:28 PM »
PBR won a medal at GABF this year.  I think it has won several medals over the years.  It can't be that bad, but I don't plan on buying it to find out.  Light lagers aren't something I enjoy much.

I know, just struck me funny !  I've had some PBR over the years, none of it memorable though.
Jon H.

Offline Steve in TX

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Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2014, 03:34:29 PM »
I love pbr. Too expensive in Texas at 10.99. $6.99 12 packs in California.

Article on where the blue ribbon came from.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/where-did-pabst-win-that-blue-ribbon-138975181/

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Batch Sparge Water Temp
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2014, 03:50:50 PM »
By the way, batch sparging with too hot water isn't Denny's method. Lots of brewers do it. ;-)