Author Topic: Late extract addition  (Read 1213 times)

Online flbrewer

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Late extract addition
« on: July 08, 2014, 10:04:25 AM »
What are your thoughts on adding part of the extract later in the boil? Would it matter for a short boil ~20 minutes?

Online Joe Sr.

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 10:07:44 AM »
I always add extract late.  But at a 20 minute boil, I don't think the impact will be as dramatic as a 60 minute boil.

I shoot for adding in the last 10 minutes.
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Offline mattybrass

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 08:00:30 AM »
i do late extract additions for my light beers im worried about over-darkening and also for any beers i dont want to have to use a ton of additional hops for since this increases the utilization of any hops added before the late addition, ie IPA, IIPA, Barleywine etc

Offline happywanderer

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 11:35:23 AM »
There was a study done by really smart brewers/scientists.  They studied late addition effects on hop utilization and determined there was no discernible difference. 

I don't recall where I found that thread or on which forum, but if I can find it I will post a link here.

All that said - I do partial late-edition.  I tend to add about 1/3 at start of boil then the remaining 2/3 at either 15minutes or flameout.  Adding at flameout would have the added bonus of helping cool your wort a bit. 


Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 11:36:45 AM »
There was a study done by really smart brewers/scientists.  They studied late addition effects on hop utilization and determined there was no discernible difference. 

I don't recall where I found that thread or on which forum, but if I can find it I will post a link here.

All that said - I do partial late-edition.  I tend to add about 1/3 at start of boil then the remaining 2/3 at either 15minutes or flameout.  Adding at flameout would have the added bonus of helping cool your wort a bit.

so gravity of wort does not have an effect on utilization? that's news. can you link to the study?
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Offline happywanderer

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 11:40:52 AM »
Here's from the forum... thought I'd find it:

Quote:
Beersmith (and pretty much all homebrewing software) gets this wrong pretty dramatically. The formulas used by software are based on the old, mistaken belief that hop utilization is affected by wort gravity (pretty much all home brewing texts convey that myth too, though I'd expect it to be corrected in forthcoming additions of How to Brew and others).

Hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, and the impact (if any) of late extract addition on IBUs is much, much smaller than what software will calculate.

The most recent test on this was Basic Brewing Radio's experiment where they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).
March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

You can listen to John Palmer's "What is an IBU, Really?" from 20 March 2008 where he discusses the issue in some depth (including apologizing for getting this wrong in the most recent edition of How to Brew):
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.ph...ing-radio-2008

Now, there are some effects that often correlate with wort gravity that can impact final utilization--e.g. isomerized alpha acids can adsorb to break material. Those are much smaller effects than what brewing software calculates, though, and are pretty minimal in extract brewing (see the test above).

More discussion here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/est...te-art-109681/
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-utilization-178668/

Offline mattybrass

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 11:28:21 AM »
Hmm. I wonder how true this is, not doubting the study but ive always been told otherwise. Im interested to see what some of the very experienced brewers think about it

Online Joe Sr.

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 12:47:00 PM »
I recall reading something about this sometime in the recent past.  I don't know if it matters all that much to me.  Recipes are simply a starting point.  Brew it, tweak it, brew it again until you get what you want.  If it's not hoppy enough the first time, add more hops the next time.

Nonetheless, I'll stick with late extract addition if only to avoid darkening.

Also, if you're doing all extract you do need to add some portion at the start of the boil.  You don't want to boil your hops in plain old water and then add the extract late.  The 1/3 : 2/3 mentioned above is probably spot on for all extract.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 12:50:51 PM »
I recall reading something about this sometime in the recent past.  I don't know if it matters all that much to me.  Recipes are simply a starting point.  Brew it, tweak it, brew it again until you get what you want.  If it's not hoppy enough the first time, add more hops the next time.

Nonetheless, I'll stick with late extract addition if only to avoid darkening.

Also, if you're doing all extract you do need to add some portion at the start of the boil.  You don't want to boil your hops in plain old water and then add the extract late.  The 1/3 : 2/3 mentioned above is probably spot on for all extract.

+1.  I used that ratio with a lot of my extract brews, mostly to keep darkening to a minimum too.
Jon H.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 10:34:15 PM »
Hmm. I wonder how true this is, not doubting the study but ive always been told otherwise. Im interested to see what some of the very experienced brewers think about it

A) IBU calculators are pretty much a crapshoot. At the homebrew scale they're just a tool to help get you in an initial ballpark and then dial in a recipe. None of them are super accurate over a wide range of conditions.

B) IBU's are just a lab value. There is a lot more going on with a beer's bitterness than just IBU's. I've brewed a beer that measured 98 IBU's, but tasted like a smooth 60 IBU beer to me. Then there are other beers in the 40-50 IBU range that taste harsh. IBU's are just one piece of the puzzle. You need to brew to your palate more than a somewhat arbitrary number.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 05:13:15 AM »
Hmm. I wonder how true this is, not doubting the study but ive always been told otherwise. Im interested to see what some of the very experienced brewers think about it

A) IBU calculators are pretty much a crapshoot. At the homebrew scale they're just a tool to help get you in an initial ballpark and then dial in a recipe. None of them are super accurate over a wide range of conditions.

B) IBU's are just a lab value. There is a lot more going on with a beer's bitterness than just IBU's. I've brewed a beer that measured 98 IBU's, but tasted like a smooth 60 IBU beer to me. Then there are other beers in the 40-50 IBU range that taste harsh. IBU's are just one piece of the puzzle. You need to brew to your palate more than a somewhat arbitrary number.

I agree. Even water chemistry can change how you perceive IBUs.
Jon H.

Offline yso191

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 08:01:05 AM »
Hmm. I wonder how true this is, not doubting the study but ive always been told otherwise. Im interested to see what some of the very experienced brewers think about it

A) IBU calculators are pretty much a crapshoot. At the homebrew scale they're just a tool to help get you in an initial ballpark and then dial in a recipe. None of them are super accurate over a wide range of conditions.

B) IBU's are just a lab value. There is a lot more going on with a beer's bitterness than just IBU's. I've brewed a beer that measured 98 IBU's, but tasted like a smooth 60 IBU beer to me. Then there are other beers in the 40-50 IBU range that taste harsh. IBU's are just one piece of the puzzle. You need to brew to your palate more than a somewhat arbitrary number.

I agree. Even water chemistry can change how you perceive IBUs.

YES.  I just recently learned this thanks to Martin Brungard.  pH has a powerful influence over perceived hop bitterness.
Steve
All Hands Brewing

Offline mattybrass

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 10:55:13 AM »
Ive been told a bunch of times that water is the last thing to worry about when homebrewing yet consistently on this forum i find info to disprove that. Guess its time to start researching my water.

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 11:29:18 AM »
Ive been told a bunch of times that water is the last thing to worry about when homebrewing yet consistently on this forum i find info to disprove that. Guess its time to start researching my water.

you don't have to go crazy with it but if you've got temp control and pitching rates down and don't get horrible infections regularly then water is your next limiting factor. Unless your recipes are just gross ::)
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Online Joe Sr.

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Re: Late extract addition
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 11:50:27 AM »
I suppose it depends on your water.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton