Author Topic: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?  (Read 2137 times)

Offline quattlebaum

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Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« on: July 10, 2014, 01:59:17 PM »
Well havent used WLP 007 in a while and forgot it is a monster and i let it get to hot in the mid 70's and it through off to many fusel alcohol. it is an IPA at 7% ABV and i was wanting to redue the beer this weekend and pitch using the slurry. Being that i let it get hot is the yeast somewhat predisposed to "off Flavors" or can i pitch with slurry safely and keep it low 66F.

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2014, 02:58:22 PM »
Most ale yeast strains do not get stressed at that temperature.   On the other hand, 7% ABV stresses some yeast strains.  WLP007 is Whitbread B, which is a fairly hardy strain.  Additionally, Fermentis S-04 is the same yeast strain as WLP007.

Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2014, 06:48:09 PM »
I wouldn't use the slurry.

Fusel alcohols have a low flavor threshold, so the slurry may contain enough fusels to affect the flavor of the new beer (or give fusel headaches).

The yeast may also give off more yeast stress compounds before starting a new growth phase.

I disagree with S. cerevisiae; yeast stress is completely plausible at any temperature if it changes too quickly. Pitching at the high end of the recommended range increases the chance of overheating.

If you're not actively controlling fermentation temperature, it will be difficult to keep the sudden temperature changes in check, especially in a higher gravity beer.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 06:51:11 PM »
Additionally, Fermentis S-04 is the same yeast strain as WLP007.

I did not know that.  WLP007 makes for a great IPA, I'll have to try S-04 next time.
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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 07:43:51 PM »
I disagree with S. cerevisiae; yeast stress is completely plausible at any temperature if it changes too quickly. Pitching at the high end of the recommended range increases the chance of overheating.

However, the OP did not state that there was a rapid change in temperature.  There has to be an abrupt change in temperature to induce thermal stress.  The natural rise in temperature that occurs in the average non-attempered fermentation is not rapid enough to cause thermal stress.  Plus, a fermentation temperature in the seventies is not considered to be high for brewing yeast.  Brewing yeast is propagated commercially at 85F. 

The fusel oils are mostly in the supernatant.  The residual amount of fusel oils that may be left in 150ml to 200ml of slurry will be undetectable when pitched into 5 gallons of wort. 

The only real reason why the OP should consider not re-pitching the slurry is due to the fact that the yeast cells have been subjected to an ABV level of 7%, which while high is not over the top.   WLP007 is a hardy strain.  It maintains a high viability level through the drying process.  I would not think twice about re-pitching it. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 09:13:50 PM by S. cerevisiae »

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 08:33:32 PM »
I did not know that.  WLP007 makes for a great IPA, I'll have to try S-04 next time.

S-04 = WLP007 = Wyeast 1098 = NCYC 1026 = Whitbread B

Additionally, while people refer to Wyeast 1056 as "Chico," that's actually a misnomer.  Sierra Nevada acquired the strain from Siebel.  Siebel acquired the strain from Ballantine.  The Ballantine family acquired the strain from the UK.

From Siebel's web site (http://www.siebelinstitute.com/services/yeast/yeast-cultures):

"Bry 96

This is a flocculent top fermenting ale yeast from a brewery formerly operating on the East Coast of the United States. It produces a very clean ale flavor which has been well accepted in a number of breweries."

US-05 = WLP001 = Wyeast 1056 = "Chico" =  Siebel Bry 96 = Ballantine

Here's a factoid that most brewers do not know.  Bry 96 is a diploid, that is, it has two sets of sixteen chromosomes, which makes it kind of unique in the world of brewing yeast strains.  Most brewing strains are polyploids, that is, they have more than two sets of sixteen chromosomes.  Aneuploidy is also common in brewing yeast strains.  Aneuploidy in yeast is a condition where the total number of chromosomes is not a multiple of sixteen due to the addition or deletion of one or more chromosomes.

For inquiring minds, Ballantine/Chico has been genetically sequenced.  It was assigned the strain number GSY708 in the following paper: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2008/09/11/gr.076075.108.full.pdf (the genetic features of the strain are discussed in paragraph 2 on page number 8 ).
 





Offline quattlebaum

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 08:59:51 PM »
Nice responses gentlemen ;D  If fact i do believe i introduce some stress to the yeast at hand. I did pitch an adequate healthy starter at 64 F. Placed it at ambient temps in my basement at 66F. 24 hrs later i checked at "brew bucket" sticker said 70F and it sounded like a machine gun because the blow off was so bad. I then placed it in a water bath at 64F for 24 hrs at which time it stopped, stupid me i should have known better i just panicked. it then stopped at 1.020 i then raised the temp to 72 and it finished. So i do believe i shocked the little sucker :-[

Offline duboman

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 09:19:07 PM »
I did not know that.  WLP007 makes for a great IPA, I'll have to try S-04 next time.

S-04 = WLP007 = Wyeast 1098 = NCYC 1026 = Whitbread B

Additionally, while people refer to Wyeast 1056 as "Chico," that's actually a misnomer.  Sierra Nevada acquired the strain from Siebel.  Siebel acquired the strain from Ballantine.  The Ballantine family acquired the strain from the UK.

From Siebel's web site (http://www.siebelinstitute.com/services/yeast/yeast-cultures):

"Bry 96

This is a flocculent top fermenting ale yeast from a brewery formerly operating on the East Coast of the United States. It produces a very clean ale flavor which has been well accepted in a number of breweries."

US-05 = WLP001 = Wyeast 1056 = "Chico" =  Siebel Bry 96 = Ballantine

Here's a factoid that most brewers do not know.  Bry 96 is a diploid, that is, it has two sets of sixteen chromosomes, which makes it kind of unique in the world of brewing yeast strains.  Most brewing strains are polyploids, that is, they have more than two sets of sixteen chromosomes.  Aneuploidy is also common in brewing yeast strains.  Aneuploidy in yeast is a condition where the total number of chromosomes is not a multiple of sixteen due to the addition or deletion of one or more chromosomes.

For inquiring minds, Ballantine/Chico has been genetically sequenced.  It was assigned the strain number GSY708 in the following paper: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2008/09/11/gr.076075.108.full.pdf (the genetic features of the strain are discussed in paragraph 2 on page number 8 ).

Thank you, I can certainly say I learned something today!
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 09:33:10 PM »
There are a handful of reasons for why one should not re-pitch a culture.  Dropping the temperature quickly enough to cause the yeast to stall is not on that list. Only you can make the call, but I would personally re-pitch if no contamination-related off-flavors can be identified.  Yeast almost always performs better on the second pitch than it does on the first.   I maintain my own yeast bank on agar slants, and I re-pitch if I use a strain in two back-to-back batches.  Re-pitching is infinitely easier than propagating a new culture from slant.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 09:50:25 PM »


Thank you, I can certainly say I learned something today!

Yeah, the info on 1056 especially. Never knew about the Ballantine connection, or the possible reasons for its cold tolerance.
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Offline duboman

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 09:59:34 PM »


Thank you, I can certainly say I learned something today!

Yeah, the info on 1056 especially. Never knew about the Ballantine connection, or the possible reasons for its cold tolerance.

And here I was swirling around in the diploid, polyploid and Aneuploidy, feeling like I've entered the wrong classroom :o
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2014, 10:23:16 PM »


Thank you, I can certainly say I learned something today!

Yeah, the info on 1056 especially. Never knew about the Ballantine connection, or the possible reasons for its cold tolerance.

And here I was swirling around in the diploid, polyploid and Aneuploidy, feeling like I've entered the wrong classroom :o

Must've been sitting next to you in class.  ;)
Jon H.

Offline Kinetic

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 11:18:35 PM »
All I know is 1098 gives me the most pleasant buzz compared to every yeast I've used.   

It's been a while since I used S-04, but I recall not liking it enough to use it again and it was considerably more flocculent than 1098.  Not liking S-04 might have been due to the recipe, so I should give it another try.  Are you sure it's the same as 1098 and not 1099, the other Whitbread?     

Offline duboman

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2014, 12:17:11 AM »



Thank you, I can certainly say I learned something today!

Yeah, the info on 1056 especially. Never knew about the Ballantine connection, or the possible reasons for its cold tolerance.

And here I was swirling around in the diploid, polyploid and Aneuploidy, feeling like I've entered the wrong classroom :o

Must've been sitting next to you in class.  ;)
might have been one of THOSE chemistry classes.......
Peace....Love......Beer......

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Re: Fusel Alcohol and Re pitching?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2014, 01:39:50 AM »
All I know is 1098 gives me the most pleasant buzz compared to every yeast I've used.   

It's been a while since I used S-04, but I recall not liking it enough to use it again and it was considerably more flocculent than 1098.  Not liking S-04 might have been due to the recipe, so I should give it another try.  Are you sure it's the same as 1098 and not 1099, the other Whitbread?     

While there are many yeast cultures that carry a Whitbread accession number, S-04 is definitely Whitbread B and so is 1098 and WLP007 (Whitbread B is basically the W-34/70 of the ale world).  Any difference in performance is due to propagation environment.  Whitbread B is a continuous tower yeast strain.  A continuous tower is a type of bioreactor that is designed to continuously produce beer instead of yeast.   Fresh wort is fed into the bottom of the tower while beer is drawn from the top.  That's why Whitbread B is a non-head-forming yeast strain.  If it formed a yeast head, beer could not be drawn from the top of the tower.   One the attributes that makes Whitbread B stand apart from other yeast strains is that it produces above taste threshold lactic acid.  This attribute is usually described as "tart" in yeast descriptions.


Here's the parent strain:

NCYC 1026
Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Pre 2011 Name Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Equivalent Strain Designations ATCC 46785, CBS 6234, CCRC 22576, NRRL Y-11875

Depositor British Brewery

Deposit Date June 1958

Habitat Ale production strain.

Information    Flocculent.
NewFlo type flocculation.
1:5:4:5:5
O2, DMS 33 µg/l, low acetic, high lactic, diacetyl 0.42ppm only, used commercially in Tower Fermenters (continuous process), non head-forming, no estery flavour. Contains 2µ plasmid.
Depositor    British Brewery
Deposit Name    Saccharomyces cerevisiae
Month of deposit    June
Deposit Year    1958
Habitat    Ale production strain.


There is a table in the upper left-hand quadrant of page 50 in this PDF that states that NCYC 1026 is a Whitbread B equivalent:  http://www.red-ts.com/images/products/11%20DEQ%20NCYC.pdf


Now, the final piece of the puzzle is Michael Lewis.  He brought the culture into the United States.  NCYC 1026 is strain number 69-53 in the Phaff Yeast Culture Collection at U.C. Davis.  The first number in a Phaff accession number is the year that the strain was deposited.  The second number is the strain number within the deposit year.   If the accession number accurately encodes the year of deposit and yeast strain number, culture number 69-53 is the 53rd yeast strain that was deposited in 1969. No other person was more influential in the early days of microbrewing than Michael Lewis.  He mentored Jack McAuliffe.

Strain ID   69-53
Genus   Saccharomyces
Species   cerevisiae
Synonym   
Source   "Received by M.J. Lewis from Brewing Industry Research Foundation, Nutfield, U.K.. Natl. Collection of yeast cultures #1026." brewing yeast, ale. Used commercially in APV tower fermenters.
Mating Type   
Type Strain   
CBS number   
ATCC number   
NRRL number   
Other Collections   
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:15:52 AM by S. cerevisiae »